Don't nerf DRG - BUFF NIN

[MaelleRiou]

Black mage, samurai, and machinist should bring the highest personal DPS so samurai and machinist need a buff. Monk and dragoon bring too much personal DPS and so should be nerfed. Red mage needs a buff since their utility was taken out back and forced out of mana.

[ForteNightshade]

Black mage, samurai, and machinist should bring the highest personal DPS so samurai and machinist need a buff. Monk and dragoon bring too much personal DPS and so should be nerfed. Red mage needs a buff since their utility was taken out back and forced out of mana.

Black Mage currently deals a whooping 400 more rDPS higher than both. Yes, Raid DPS. A selfish job with zero utility is doing four hundred more raid DPS than jobs with utility. If anything, Black Mage should be brought down a little because it's utterly destroying Summoner and Red Mage. While Samurai does, indeed, need a buff. It's debatable if Machinist does. Why would a job with free mobility do the same damage as jobs forced to disengage for mechanics? If Machinist dealt equivalent damage to Samurai... why in the hell are you playing Samurai? It's useless. Machinist has no positional issues, doesn't require uptime strats and can execute movement specific mechanics like baiting without losing damage.

People really need to stop looking outside roles. Machinist competes with Bard and Dancer, not Dragoon or Samurai. And people really need to stop whining over Dragoon and/or Monk's damage. Both are dead even with one another.

[MaelleRiou]

Black Mage currently deals a whooping 400 more rDPS higher than both. Yes, Raid DPS. A selfish job with zero utility is doing four hundred more raid DPS than jobs with utility. If anything, Black Mage should be brought down a little because it's utterly destroying Summoner and Red Mage. While Samurai does, indeed, need a buff. It's debatable if Machinist does. Why would a job with free mobility do the same damage as jobs forced to disengage for mechanics? If Machinist dealt equivalent damage to Samurai... why in the hell are you playing Samurai? It's useless. Machinist has no positional issues, doesn't require uptime strats and can execute movement specific mechanics like baiting without losing damage.

People really need to stop looking outside roles. Machinist competes with Bard and Dancer, not Dragoon or Samurai. And people really need to stop whining over Dragoon and/or Monk's damage. Both are dead even with one another.

That just isn't true. The raid is not always 2 tank/2 healer/2 melee/1 ranged/1 caster. There's been a variety of "meta" raid comps over the years with varying numbers of DPS roles. All DPS compete with each other. 3 melee+bard was fairly common for instance.

The meta composition is created based on which DPS are strong and what buffs they bring, not because of roles. Machinist is not just competing with Bard and Dancer, they're competing with every other DPS job.

[HyoMinPark]

That just isn't true. The raid is not always 2 tank/2 healer/2 melee/1 ranged/1 caster. There's been a variety of "meta" raid comps over the years with varying numbers of DPS roles. All DPS compete with each other. 3 melee+bard was fairly common for instance.

The meta composition is created based on which DPS are strong and what buffs they bring, not because of roles. Machinist is not just competing with Bard and Dancer, they're competing with every other DPS job.

De facto metas also aren’t triple melee + ranged—most metas are 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, 1 or 2 physical ranged, or 1 physical ranged and 1 caster. Especially now with +1% main stat bonuses you get from having 1 of each role, it’s going to be 1 physical ranged and 1 caster.


Triple melee was a meta for Chadarnook (O6S), and I believe could also be used in Chaos (O9S) but a lot of speedkills were also standard 2 melee. Midgardsormr (O10S) was 2 melee. Three groups in the Top 10 speedkills for Omega (O11S) were triple melee—the rest were double meta. M+F and Final Omega (O12S) were 2 melee. Deltascape did not see triple melee comps, and though I heard of it being tried in Guardian (O7S), it was not a recorded top speedkill.

In Creator, the meta was 2 melee and 2 physical ranged (NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH). Straight up. You weren’t doing triple melee in Creator thanks to NIN’s utility with enmity, Trick, and DRG’s Piercing buff it gave the broken BRD and MCH at the time.

Neither Ultimate used triple melee—2 melee, 1 physical ranged, and 1 caster (and not just because UwU forced it—SMN was very common in UCoB thanks to its 4.1 changes though some groups did BRD+MCH).

[MaelleRiou]

De facto metas also aren’t triple melee + ranged—most metas are 2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 melee, 1 physical ranged, and 1 caster. Especially now with +1% main stat bonuses you get from having 1 of each role.

Triple melee was a meta for Chadarnook, and I believe could also be used in Chaos but a lot of speedkills were also standard 2 melee. Midgardsormr was 2 melee. Three groups in the Top 10 speedkills for Omega (O11S) were triple melee—the rest were double meta. M+F and Final were 2 melee. Neither Ultimate used triple melee—2 melee, 1 physical ranged, and 1 caster (and not just because UwU forced it—SMN was very common in UCoB thanks to its 4.1 changes though some groups did BRD+MCH).

That's a lot of doubling up on a certain role. I wonder why that is?

[HyoMinPark]

That's a lot of doubling up on a certain role. I wonder why that is?

If you make the physical ranged deal the same damage as melee, the melee are dead. There would be very little reason to bring more than just 1 for the 1% party bonus. Groups would pick the one that deals the most damage and the other three are left to rot. With the ranged being so powerful, what’s the point in bringing more than the 1 required melee? You don’t have to worry about making uptime strats for the melee (because those strats explicitly cater to melee DPS and no one else—not even tanks benefited much from Final Omega’s uptime strat). It’s just easier on everyone, right?

This cannot be a thing, though: because you can’t have 1 viable job in a role and 3 dead ones. As it stands now, the melee need slight adjustments, but there are still 3 out of 4 that are viable: NIN is hurting and needs to be buffed (It’s 1,000+ rDPS below the other melee), and SAM could use some potency buffs because it should be on par with BLM. The physical ranged are all relatively equal to one another once you consider rDPS, though BRD is still slightly behind MCH (not by a lot) and DNC slightly behind BRD. Casters need some help because BLM utterly destroys RDM and SMN. But this doesn’t mean they all need to be buffed to deal the same personal damage as melee DPS.

Why bring a machinist when a monk or dragoon can do more personal DPS and bring raid buffs?

Do you think melee are going to disengage for mechanics that can be performed by the ranged? Take the Ultimates for example: are the MNK or DRG going to bait Liquid Hells? What about Ifrit’s Eruptions in UwU? Are they going to bait those? What about the water puddles in Titania? You have to have 4 party members disengage to the 4 corner puddles. Do you think melee DPS are going to do that?

I’ll answer these questions for you: no, they won’t.

[MaelleRiou]

If you make the physical ranged deal the same damage as melee, the melee are dead. There would be very little reason to bring more than just 1 for the 1% party bonus. Groups would pick the one that deals the most damage and the other three are left to rot. With the ranged being so powerful, what’s the point in bringing more than the 1 required melee? You don’t have to worry about making uptime strats for the melee (because those strats explicitly cater to melee DPS and no one else—not even tanks benefited much from Final Omega’s uptime strat). It’s just easier on everyone, right?

This cannot be a thing, though: because you can’t have 1 viable job in a role and 3 dead ones. As it stands now, the melee need slight adjustments, but there are still 3 out of 4 that are viable: NIN is hurting and needs to be buffed (It’s 1,000+ rDPS below the other melee), and SAM could use some potency buffs because it should be on par with BLM. The physical ranged are all relatively equal to one another once you consider rDPS, though BRD is still slightly behind MCH (not by a lot) and DNC slightly behind BRD. Casters need some help because BLM utterly destroys RDM and SMN. But this doesn’t mean they all need to be buffed to deal the same personal damage as melee DPS.



Do you think melee are going to disengage for mechanics that can be performed by the ranged? Take the Ultimates for example: are the MNK or DRG going to bait Liquid Hells? What about Ifrit’s Eruptions in UwU? Are they going to bait those? What about the water puddles in Titania? You have to have 4 party members disengage to the 4 corner puddles. Do you think melee DPS are going to do that?

I’ll answer these questions for you: no, they won’t.

How is that different from only having 1 physical ranged and 1 caster? Groups would just take the best job from those roles for the 1% buff and the others would be left out. Why is it ok to do that to the ranged roles, but not to melee?

[CapricaLangley]

That just isn't true. The raid is not always 2 tank/2 healer/2 melee/1 ranged/1 caster. There's been a variety of "meta" raid comps over the years with varying numbers of DPS roles. All DPS compete with each other. 3 melee+bard was fairly common for instance.

The meta composition is created based on which DPS are strong and what buffs they bring, not because of roles. Machinist is not just competing with Bard and Dancer, they're competing with every other DPS job.

At the same time, every job has strenghts and weaknesses that have to be taken in DEEP consideration. Ranged DPS jobs have mobility and zero downtime, they easily deal with mechanics; they should bring lower personal DPS than melee jobs while at the same time providing a safer navigation through harder content. The problem is when jobs like MCH (or even BRD) can provide equal if not more DPS than melee. There's no reason to bring a melee in such enviroment.

Just for the record, i main bard. When you are doing progression or running extremes with pugs, you'll see ranged DPS standing at the top 90% of the time. Every single Titania and Innocence ex I entered the last two weeks with party finder, i was standing at the top, except for the occasional godly DPS you'll find based on join RNG. When we reach higher numbers than melee in the top percentile of fflogs, where only the best of the best are taken into account, it's a huge problem. I feel like if we continue to push this kind of arguments, one day every single ranged job will be nerfed into oblivion.

[MaelleRiou]

At the same time, every job has strenghts and weaknesses that have to be taken in DEEP consideration. Ranged DPS jobs have mobility and zero downtime, they easily deal with mechanics; they should bring lower personal DPS than melee jobs while at the same time providing a safer navigation through harder content. The problem is when jobs like MCH (or even BRD) can provide equal if not more DPS than melee. There's no reason to bring a melee in such enviroment.

Just for the record, i main bard. When you are doing progression or running extremes with pugs, you'll see ranged DPS standing at the top 90% of the time. Every single Titania and Innocence ex I entered the last two weeks with party finder, i was standing at the top, except for the occasional godly DPS you'll find based on join RNG. When we reach higher numbers than melee in the top percentile of fflogs, where only the best of the best are taken into account, it's a huge problem. I feel like if we continue to push this kind of arguments, one day every single ranged job will be nerfed into oblivion.

Why bring a machinist when a monk or dragoon can do more personal DPS and bring raid buffs?

[ForteNightshade]

That just isn't true. The raid is not always 2 tank/2 healer/2 melee/1 ranged/1 caster. There's been a variety of "meta" raid comps over the years with varying numbers of DPS roles. All DPS compete with each other. 3 melee+bard was fairly common for instance.

The meta composition is created based on which DPS are strong and what buffs they bring, not because of roles. Machinist is not just competing with Bard and Dancer, they're competing with every other DPS job.

As noted above, there has been almost no "variety" in the meta. Melee have always been the superior choice because they have to be. Like I said, if Machinist did equivalent damage to Samurai, it renders Samurai completely pointless. The inverse, however, is not true since range DPS can handle mechanics melee DPS can't. For example sake, let's look at Final Omega. You required a complete different strategy for Hello World that was harder on the healers because of uptime. Even then, they still lost damage having to deal with mechanics. Now imagine if all the Casters and Range DPS did roughly the same rDPS as the melee. You wouldn't need a new strategy and no uptime loss. So what purpose do the melee serve? Migard is another example where it was straight up optimal for them to eat mechanics so they didn't have to disengage. While they could usually heal themselves, it was still better for the healer to adjust if they took more damage than expected. Once again, if all the range DPS did equivalent damage. This is no longer necessary.

No matter how you slice it, melee have to contribute higher overall rDPS or they're completely useless.

Why bring a machinist when a monk or dragoon can do more personal DPS and bring raid buffs?

Go ahead and ask any Monk or Dragoon to disengage completely from the boss to handle bait mechanics. When they're done laughing... you'll have your answer.