Changes to Meditation, Tornado Kick, and Other Actions for 5.0 Monk

[Oxdarock]

This post mostly relates to my previous post and written guide on the 5.0 monk TK rotation. Much as I love this version of the class, it needs quite a few tweaks to feel complete, both for TK and Non-TK users of various skill levels.

I believe these suggestions will get the job done without needing too much of a redesign. As you can see, there’s quite a lot of reasoning behind each suggestion, but I tried to make the main points stand out at least. So grab a snack and a drink, cause it’s gonna be a long one!

1. Change Meditation to an ability similar to Dancer’s Standard Step (in that it needs to be used on the GCD), but give it an added effect that excludes it from the 6SS recast timer.

I believe this change will give 6SS a more obvious use in the form of consistent chakra buildup, whether it’s running from a boss to deal with a fight mechanic or in the middle of a GCD rotation. While I understand and agree with the increased GCD of 6SS (it’s a formless, omni-direction GCD with roughly the same power as 2 GCDs), the inability to do anything afterwards for four seconds is nothing short of terrifying to most monks. Even when the best use of 6SS is to weave in oGCDs during the cooldown (TK, FoF, RoF, Pots, etc), there usually aren’t enough oGCDs to fill in the gap at times, leaving at least 2 awkward seconds of doing nothing (with the exception of using Anatman). Giving monks an option to build up more FC uses during this downtime would help make up for the loss of Internal Release, Steel Peak, and Howling Fist. What’s more, it would retain monk’s identity of always being active, something I’ve loved about the class since 3.0. If anything else, this is the change I feel is absolutely necessary.

2. Increase the base potency of Tornado Kick to 380-400 and increase the potency to 430-450 when under GL4.

Quite frankly, it makes no sense that a move that uses up the most important monk resource, one that takes a decent amount of effort to build and maintain, does far less damage than two GCDs and an oGCD whose resources are much easier to build in comparison. Not only that, but now monks have an extra stack of GL to build and yet this move retains the same potency. It’s not hard to see why most monks have forsaken the TK rotation.

3. Allow for monks to hold up to 10 Chakra stacks (which can be shown by adding a “2” in each slot similar to how charge skills work) in order to deal with chakra overflow from “Deep Meditation” and “Brotherhood”. The current function where Meditation changes to Forbidden Chakra at 5 stacks should remain as is.

There’s not much I need to explain as I’m fairly certain all monks can agree with me on this one. Not only would you be able to save FC until for important buff windows, you’ll ultimately gain even more uses over the course of a fight, which would be another way to account for the loss of IR. Having Meditation still change to FC after 5 stacks is take class balance into account and prevent button bloat.

4. Change the GL refresh of 6SS to “generates GL when under one or less stacks” and add the effect of “increases potency to 450 when at GL3 or GL4”.

If the increased damage doesn’t encourage more usage of 6SS among the monk community, the GL gain sure will. I just feel like this move should do more damage given extended GCD timer and have a much better effect befitting of a max level move. Even though the current potency is comparable to the immediate damage of 2 GCDs, the only combination it currently exceeds is a [Dragon kick+Twin Snakes] or a [Twin Snakes+Demolish] combo. A non-buffed [Bootshine+Twin Snakes] and [Twin Snakes+Snap Punch] evens out and anything that’s paired with True Strike or a Leaden Bootshine exceeds it outright.

As for the GL stack under 1 GL effect, aside from making sure that Anatman doesn’t get thrown under the bus, the current GL refresh it’s actually far less useful than it seems (in fact, I’ve only ever viewed it as slightly convenient in the open world areas). Since 3.0, when it comes to refreshing GL for brief moments of downtime, the best way to do this has always been to manipulate your usage of Form Shift so that you’re in Coerl form right as the boss is targetable again and considering the current GCD extension of 6SS, this remains to be true. Even if the change to Meditation idea from above were implemented, the form counter still counts down normally even after using 6SS, so if timed incorrectly, you’ll end up losing your stance and hurting your dps, possibly almost as badly as losing GL. For longer periods of downtime (specifically add phase transitions in the EX primals), while a well timed 6SS can lead to a perfectly timed Earth’s Reply, if one ever truly feels that they’re in danger of losing GL, their first instinct is to use Anatman to hold their stacks or use TK on the last add and then use Anatman (which works even at zero GL so long as you’re in combat) to regain all their stacks before the boss is targetable again. The current refresh doesn’t even help in dungeons because there tends to be quite a distance from one mob to the next, even when pulling big groups. Finally, there’s the mid-combo 6SS usage, which is done after Twin Snakes/True strike and is usually followed up by TK, thereby making the refresh pointless. And the 6SS that comes soon after that is followed by Anatman, which already refreshes GL and builds even more stacks! As much as I love this move, I understand why other monks find it underwhelming as it currently is.

5. Lower Anatman’s cooldown to 45 seconds.

As a current user of the TK rotation, this would be greatly appreciated. The most obvious reason is that it would line up perfectly at the end of the RoF+BH windows. However, what’s not so obvious is the amount of planning that goes into using Anatman during a fight. Currently, on multiple occasions, the best time to use Anatman happens right when an important fight mechanic is about to occur. During this time, you’re forced to hold off on a TK for around 15-20secs, which can effectively throw off Anatman’s timing with your preferred buff windows or cause you to lose a use altogether. A slightly shorter CD on Anatman would give a bit more leeway for TK usage mid-fight and, for non-TK rotation users, make it even easier to maintain GL!

6. Make Elixir Field a charged move with two stacks, increase shoulder tackle to three stacks, or both. Also give Tornado Kick the added effect of reducing the cooldown timer of the charged skills by 15 seconds.

Admittedly, I included this as a quick fix option, even though it’s plainly clear that I ripped this from MCH. I’ve seen that some monks are really upset over the lack of extra buttons to push in between GCDs due to the loss of Steel Peak and Howling Fist, so I felt that this would have something of a band-aid effect.

And that’s everything! Sorry if it took a while to get through it all. It’s still early in the release of ShB, so I’m really hoping that some of these changes can be implemented by the time Eden Savage comes out. Either way, I still find monk very satisfying to play and contrary to popular belief, the TK rotation is still very much alive!

So talk about it! Ask me questions, call me crazy, anything to get this noticed by the devs! They say they listen, so let’s give some constructive criticism!

[silverdragontyr]

Tornado Kick's potency is 420. The current shown is a bug. You can test this yourself by comparing damage to SSS. It still doesn't fix the issue. It's a move that eats all stacks of GL. The trade off must be worth the time invested which is at minimum 4 WS and a 2 minute skill, or 12 WS now. The only way to balance this and have it still eat GL is give it a potency of 700-1000. That is massive for a class that is usually running +40% damage but it's the only way for it to be balanced and worth using on a regular basis.

Anatman having a cooldown more than 10 seconds honestly doesn't make sense. It's only use is to maintain GL, it doesn't generate it as fast as WS except for a server tick exploit, and is generally clunky to use. It should have a low cooldown and gotten thirty levels earlier.

Chakra has always been clunky and more so since removing IR. The whole system needs to be reworked.

Adding more charges to the few oGCD we have doesn't fix Mnk's core issues. It has no directions, and the core systems are clunky and hard to use.

[Oxdarock]

Tornado Kick's potency is 420. The current shown is a bug. You can test this yourself by comparing damage to SSS. It still doesn't fix the issue. It's a move that eats all stacks of GL. The trade off must be worth the time invested which is at minimum 4 WS and a 2 minute skill, or 12 WS now. The only way to balance this and have it still eat GL is give it a potency of 700-1000. That is massive for a class that is usually running +40% damage but it's the only way for it to be balanced and worth using on a regular basis.

You know, I'd actually seen this mentioned in another forum and tested it just now. You're right, even under GL3, TK does slightly more damage than 6SS. That's actually pretty interesting as it means the calculations for TK openers I figured out were actually lower than they were supposed to be! Still, I don't think it needs that much of a potency boost since you can use it very frequently and regain GL stacks with PB or a 6SS+Anatman combo after Snap/Demo.

Anatman having a cooldown more than 10 seconds honestly doesn't make sense. It's only use is to maintain GL, it doesn't generate it as fast as WS except for a server tick exploit, and is generally clunky to use. It should have a low cooldown and gotten thirty levels earlier.

Chakra has always been clunky and more so since removing IR. The whole system needs to be reworked.

Adding more charges to the few oGCD we have doesn't fix Mnk's core issues. It has no directions, and the core systems are clunky and hard to use.

Given how Anatman can be used in a 5.0 TK rotation (which comes down to using 6SS+TK->FoF, filling in the CD with other oGCDs, followed by Snap/Demo, then 6SS+Anatman), if it were shorter than 45 seconds, you could span a huge number of TKs.

I don't think Chakra needs to be reworked entirely. Just needs a way to deal with chakra overflow. More Chakra uses can come in 6.0

Yeah, I really don't know if adding charges to EF or ST would help at all. I was just trying to please the community from what I've seen.

[Kolsykol]

I really don't understand why Tornado Kick has to eat our GL, I desperately want to use it because it's like one of our few attacks that doesn't look boring but it's as if the devs don't want us to use it <_<.

[Oxdarock]

2. Increase the base potency of Tornado Kick to 380-400 and increase the potency to 430-450 when under GL4.

After finding out the true potency of Tornado Kick is 430, it doesn't need as much of a boost as I original thought. I would still like a potency increase under GL4 though.

5. Lower Anatman’s cooldown to 45 seconds.

I still think this would be a nice buff, but with the edits to 5.0 TK Rotations I recently made, the current CD is actually fine so long as you know how to line it up with other raid buffs.

[Oxdarock]

4. Change the GL refresh of 6SS to “generates GL when under one or less stacks” and add the effect of “increases potency to 450 when at GL3 or GL4”.

I wonder if, instead of the potency, 6SS kept its current GL refresh and refreshed the duration on the current form would work when balancing the classes. That would knock out another issue with using it at least.

[Oxdarock]

Whoo! Still two weeks to go till they implement the rest of the battle changes! Here's hoping the suggestions here reach the devs!

1. Change Meditation to an ability similar to Dancer’s Standard Step (in that it needs to be used on the GCD), but give it an added effect that excludes it from the 6SS recast timer.

Still a pretty solid adjustment, though I hope Meditation is immediately usable after 6SS instead of going through another GCD cycle afterwards. Need to be able to get in 2-3 Meditation charges for this to be a solid adjustment. Everything else I'm (somewhat) ok whether they implement it or not, but this needs to be a thing in order to make 6SS a solid lv 80 move.

[Oxdarock]

So a friend of mine came up with an interesting idea for Tornado Kick changes. While I'm happy with the new Tackle Mastery, I was still a bit disappointed to see the elemental tackles get removed. So what if monks were given a "Tornado Kick Mastery" trait that gave them elemental Tornado Kicks similar to their tackles in SB? Their effects could be this:

Earth Tornado Kick: Does AoE damage.
Fire Tornado Kick: Does more damage.
Wind Tornado Kick: Same potency, but only takes 3 GL stacks, leaving you at GL1.

ETK being for AoE aside, even though most players will go for more damage whenever possible, I feel like the choice between a FTK and WTK would still take a bit of thought because, while one does more damage, the other allows you to get right back into GL3 more quickly. So it comes down to "Big Damage" vs "Sustained Damage".

That said, I'm pretty sure such a change doesn't have a chance of being picked up before patch 5.05 and I will still gladly just take a flat potency increase on TK just as quickly, but it is an interesting thought in my opinion.

[KanameYuuki]

Stances need to be gone, plain and simple.

[killstein]

Stances need to be gone, plain and simple.

this^. i have a lot of problems with monk, so much so i dropped it as my second main, and stances being just one reason.
going 42 levels with fow only to move a little bit faster until 76 is... hmm.