Thoughts on PLD changes

[Shurrikhan]

You will also provide more safety by stunning mobs [with Shield Bash] that throw out large orange AoE's.

Soooo.....

You know what else deals no damage? Dead mobs.

Know what wastes your mitigation? Stunning.

Know what you could just... dodge, instead? Large orange AoEs.

Know what wastes a Holy spam? Stunning.

Know what wastes your healer's oGCD output? Sacrificing your damage, which would affect all mobs, to deny the damage of one inconsequential mob.

Know what ensures you die in a wall to wall pull when your CDs run out and you're not overgeared? Having subpar party damage, of which yours is a very significant part.

[TheForce]

You know what else deals no damage? Dead mobs.

Know what wastes your mitigation? Stunning.

Know what you could just... dodge, instead? Large orange AoEs.

Know what wastes a Holy spam? Stunning.

Know what wastes your healer's oGCD output? Sacrificing your damage, which would affect all mobs, to deny the damage of one inconsequential mob.

Know what ensures you die in a wall to wall pull when your CDs run out and you're not overgeared? Having subpar party damage, of which yours is a very significant part.

Okay, I get it, doing damage is cool, but enough already. You're taking this way too far. Stop trying to treat dungeon mobs like Innocence Ex. A Tank choosing to do some CC to make the group more comfortable should be encouraged, I know that as a melee dps, I totally appreciate not needing to run away every 6 seconds to dodge an aoe.

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

[MagiusNecros]

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

Probably better off ignoring it while it goes on PMSing about MAH DEEPS

[Shurrikhan]

Okay, I get it, doing damage is cool, but enough already. You're taking this way too far. Stop trying to treat dungeon mobs like Innocence Ex. A Tank choosing to do some CC to make the group more comfortable should be encouraged, I know that as a melee dps, I totally appreciate not needing to run away every 6 seconds to dodge an aoe.

A few secs of not doing "optimal" damage isn't that big of a deal in a dungeon dude. Chill.

Option 1: Hit button A, then button B. Repeat. You do something of worth.
Option 2: Tab through all available enemies hitting button C, swapping back and forth as they make "large orange AoEs" rather than dodging, to Shield Bash them. You do nothing of worth.

The issue isn't "optimizing" in the way you're suggesting when the difference is between a simpler procedure that has very significant value and a more complex procedure that has virtually no value. In the later case, if with an WHM, you might as well just stand there, and when stunning dodgeable AoEs you're actually costing yourself mitigation.

This is me suggesting not to shoot yourself just because it's an option available to you: "Look at what my toolkit can do! Aren't I quirky and innovative?"

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

You were given a situational skill. It still has some situations of potential use. I just hate how few and far between they've come, given that a skill-space is still being used on it.

And, you make a good point. Tornado Kick's another obvious example, but even it had real use until Riddle of Wind was stripped away from the job with ShB and Perfect Balance's cooldown was doubled. Were I less tired, I could probably think of a... couple more, but that's it.

[MerlinCross]

Option 1: Hit button A, then button B. Repeat. You do something of worth.
Option 2: Tab through all available enemies hitting button C, swapping back and forth as they make "large orange AoEs" rather than dodging, to Shield Bash them. You do nothing of worth.

The issue isn't "optimizing" in the way you're suggesting when the difference is between a simpler procedure that has very significant value and a more complex procedure that has virtually no value. In the later case, if with an WHM, you might as well just stand there, and when stunning dodgeable AoEs you're actually costing yourself mitigation.

This is me suggesting not to shoot yourself just because it's an option available to you: "Look at what my toolkit can do! Aren't I quirky and innovative?"

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

[Kolsykol]

We were given tools but not meant to use them. Something is wrong here and we're basically the only job left in the game that still has this problem.

Okay maybe not but I can't think of any other class that gets you yelled at for actually using parts of their kit. Well maybe WHM and the actual Cure spells.

You're meant to use them if it's actually useful.
Benediction exists but that doesn't mean that it should just be used for the sake of using it.

Should you use your defensive CD's against a single mob or use it for the next group?
It's a tool right? So '' hurr durr just use it ''?
Or maybe it's not that simple and just because you have a tool and you're using it doesn't mean that you're actually being useful or performing better.
Just because you have a hammer and you're hitting something with it doesn't mean that you're using it in a good way.

Again, Clemency for example...
If a healer is throwing Tetragrammaton and Afflatus Solace on you while you have a regen and you're standing in Asyulm you're not helping and you're not making good use of Clemency by spamming it.
It's one thing if the healer is clearly having problems and you do it or if the healer is dead, it's an entirely different thing doing it when the healer is spamming Holy and is keeping you alive without having to stop casting Holy just to keep you alive.
Tetragrammaton and Afflatus Solace is a GCD, why should both of you stop dps:ing just to both throw out more heals than necessary?
Especially when you as a PLD have better AoE damage and it's the healers job and responsibility to heal.

This entire narrative and idea that '' we have a tool so we should use it '' is incredibly simple-minded tbh and it's not how things work in practice at all.
Even for dps it's not that simple.
People need to ask themselves if what they're doing is actually helping or not and to think beyond just what you yourself are doing and think of it in the grander scheme of things and in the context of an entire group doing things together.

I know that I have an aggressive tone right now but I am just a bit tired of people trying to rationalize why they're doing random things just for the sake of doing them.

Edit: In regards to the whole stunning thing I think that it really depends a lot.
Do you have melee in your group? Is it just one mob that does it and there's a longer cd inbetween before it does it again?
If there's a lot of AoE happening then I don't see how stunning one of them is going to do much if anything, it's better to just kill them asap.
If it's one of those in the last packs in Holminster Switch tho then it's whatever.

I think that it's a matter of context like with everything else.
But I'd like to remind people that tanks have an ogcd stun, so I dunno why people are talking about Shield Bash.
You can continue to AoE and stun at the same time.
Even as someone who hates Clemency spamming PLD's I don't think that's an issue.

[Booden]

Edit: In regards to the whole stunning thing I think that it really depends a lot.
Do you have melee in your group? Is it just one mob that does it and there's a longer cd inbetween before it does it again?
If there's a lot of AoE happening then I don't see how stunning one of them is going to do much if anything, it's better to just kill them asap.
If it's one of those in the last packs in Holminster Switch tho then it's whatever.

I've done all the new dungeons from both pld and sam pov, can't say where as a melee dps I'd actually like the tank to stun monsters instead of dpsing. Most of the time you can run around the monsters and continue aoeing without getting hit by any orange aoe, and if you do you can just pop Bloodbath and heal yourself to full in like two/three gcds, or second wind if you really need it.

Not sure why Shield Bash is still in the game, it's pretty useless now considering Low Blow is a 5s stun and is ogcd. Melees also have Leg Sweep if they really need to interrupt a trash mob, and it's yet another ogcd stun, so even in the unlikely case that you'd need 3 interrupts, the tank can use interject and low blow, while a melee dps can use leg sweep, and since everything is ogcd you can keep your aoe rotation going and kill the mobs fast.

Honestly I'd rather you be casting clemency than wasting a gcd on shield bash, it's that bad.

[MerlinCross]

Snip

So your argument is "Use them when they are useful".

Okay. When are they useful? Shurrikhan for example argued that even dodging out of AoEs is better than giving up a GCD. And even if you REALLY absolutely need to interrupt, Interject and Low blow exist. We are given Shield Bash but also given really no reason to actively use it.

Clemency is also in the same way. How dare you not do a damaging GCD, how bad are you or the healer to the point you were forced into healing; goes the community. I'll also just throw in Divine Veil into that as well. Sure it's useful in raids but it's dead weight in solo content, a tool without a use in that instance(Why are we the only tank that doesn't get effected by our own AoE barrier?).

But both Shield Bash and Clemency are tools, you shouldn't be spamming them. I just wish the devs gave us a reason to use the former and the game and community let us use the Latter.

[Hezzlocks]

I've done all the new dungeons from both pld and sam pov, can't say where as a melee dps I'd actually like the tank to stun monsters instead of dpsing. Most of the time you can run around the monsters and continue aoeing without getting hit by any orange aoe, and if you do you can just pop Bloodbath and heal yourself to full in like two/three gcds, or second wind if you really need it.

Not sure why Shield Bash is still in the game, it's pretty useless now considering Low Blow is a 5s stun and is ogcd. Melees also have Leg Sweep if they really need to interrupt a trash mob, and it's yet another ogcd stun, so even in the unlikely case that you'd need 3 interrupts, the tank can use interject and low blow, while a melee dps can use leg sweep, and since everything is ogcd you can keep your aoe rotation going and kill the mobs fast.

Honestly I'd rather you be casting clemency than wasting a gcd on shield bash, it's that bad.

Still leveling my PLD, just entered SB, but as I've leveled I've seen a few times where Shield Bash was useful. Most recent example was Baelsar's Wall, those three drill armed mechs on the moving platform midway through the dungeon. If you don't stun them, good chance all 3 of them will use their party-wide unavoidable needle rain attack. I was with a SCH, so no Holy chain to do the job. By chaining Shield Bash -> Low Blow -> Shield Bash, I was able to stun all 3 of them in 2 GCDs before they could get their cast off.

Would it have wiped us if they did? No, most likely not. But it is a fair burst of party-wide damage that typically forces the healer to drop a couple of AoE heals. By using two GCDs, I allowed the healer to continue DPSing not only because the party didn't take that AoE damage, but also because I myself was no longer taking any damage for ~5 seconds. A huge difference? No, not at all, almost meaningless, in fact, but that's just off the top of my head. Imagine if you did that to prevent something that *could* have wiped the party?

So, no, it's not very useful. It's alright in the low levels where tools are limited, particularly when you're just starting to level a tank and things are still hitting you like a truck so those 5 seconds of stun time are a godsend, but beyond that it's very limited in use. But there *is* still a use for it, albeit extremely situational.

[Booden]

So your argument is "Use them when they are useful".

Okay. When are they useful? [snip]

Divine Veil is OGCD and doesn't kill your combo if you do it after fast blade, nor does it use up any mp, it doesn't matter that it's not useful in solo content because the game is balanced around 4/8/24 members, and not solo. I agree that it doesn't make sense for it to not affect us, but considering we're a tank and we can just shelltron aoes anyway, it doesn't really impact the paladin as much as you'd expect, even in savage content. Divine Veil (alongside reprisal, and depending how you fit it in Passage of Arms) is crucial to save your teammates from raidwide aoes that could wipe your party in extreme/savage content. Sure, it doesn't have much impact in 4 man content, since dungeons don't have any strong raidwide aoes, but you can still throw it anyway since you don't lose anything from using it.
I can't really remember a time where Shield Bash was absolutely necessary outside of Leviathan extreme in 2.x lol. I feel like they're keeping Shield Bash in the game to give paladin a gcd shield attack, and even though it's aesthetically nice, it should be replaced or changed. Intervene is already a much better shield attack than shield bash ever was. So yeah, shield bash has no real use or purpose, it's just there, a remnant of 2.x.

It's much more forgivable to use clemency than shield bash, because Clemency, even if it's a dps loss, it's still very useful if something goes wrong. It's also a very strong tool during savage prog, simply because you can give up on dps to see more mechanics and mitigate any error a teammate might make (and later you'll want to give up on clemencies so that you can meet the dps check). Optimally, you don't want to ever use it because healers should know what they're doing, but it's not wrong to use it if things go south (though they shouldn't).

Still leveling my PLD, just entered SB, but as I've leveled I've seen a few times where Shield Bash was useful. Most recent example was Baelsar's Wall, those three drill armed mechs on the moving platform midway through the dungeon. If you don't stun them, good chance all 3 of them will use their party-wide unavoidable needle rain attack. I was with a SCH, so no Holy chain to do the job. By chaining Shield Bash -> Low Blow -> Shield Bash, I was able to stun all 3 of them in 2 GCDs before they could get their cast off.

Would it have wiped us if they did? No, most likely not. But it is a fair burst of party-wide damage that typically forces the healer to drop a couple of AoE heals. By using two GCDs, I allowed the healer to continue DPSing not only because the party didn't take that AoE damage, but also because I myself was no longer taking any damage for ~5 seconds. A huge difference? No, not at all, almost meaningless, in fact, but that's just off the top of my head. Imagine if you did that to prevent something that *could* have wiped the party?

So, no, it's not very useful. It's alright in the low levels where tools are limited, particularly when you're just starting to level a tank and things are still hitting you like a truck so those 5 seconds of stun time are a godsend, but beyond that it's very limited in use. But there *is* still a use for it, albeit extremely situational.

For that particular situation, you could've used Divine Veil + Low blow instead of bothering with shield bash, and continued to use Total Eclipse > Prominance, which is more aoe damage than a sch can output especially under FoF. Even in the case that the party wasn't geared up properly, the worst that could've happened was the sch using one gcd to cast succor (which would trigger divine veil shields, if Eos hadn't already triggered it with Embrace by then) or an ogcd heal.

Yes, what you did might have been stylish, and I definitely think that triple stunning like that sounds kinda fun, but it's inefficient no matter what lol.

Even in lower level dungeons when you don't have prominence unlocked, spamming total eclipse instead of shield bash is more likely than not better to clear out monsters, simply because the mitigation you'd gain by stunning each monster one by one by rotating your stun won't make up for mitigation you'd gain by dpsing down monsters faster (the faster they die, the less damage you take).

Imagine if you did that to prevent something that *could* have wiped the party?

That's the thing though, there are no scenarios like this. Any raidwide aoe strong enough to wipe your party (ie: early savage raid progression) cannot be stunned or silenced, and need to be mitigated by Divine Veil + Reprisal (or Passage of Arms if the party is stacked) and healer shields. AoEs in 71 to 79 dungeons (or leveling dungeons for that matter) are not strong enough to wipe your party even if you're geared with i400 gear, and i430 gear more than make up for the raidwide damage you could take in 80 dungeons.