Bard in FF14 is so much like Hunter without Pet in Ragnarok Online

[giwaman]

Good spot for refulgent and procing and DPS wise. The DPS mechanic side, I have no complaint, but can you elaborate on how are all the songs and utilities disappeared make it in a good spot?
Or are you simply trolling? Cause if you can compare what I said with the Bard in Ragnarok, you can certainly make a conclusion. Even a primary school kid can tell.

And how is that a problem on SE's side or becoming lazy like wow? Did you want a more complicated class with a long rotation? if they wish to make the job more casual friendly/simplified is that really a big issue? You yourself agree dpswise bard is on a good spot so I don't see the problem there.

[Darkstride]

It's because Bard didn't exist when XIV first launched. We only had classes. Archer levels on it's own. Job crystals were introduced later as a sort of specialization. You could technically still play as Archer and use cross class skills for flexibility, or you could play Bard and become more support focused with no cross-class.

By design, Bard was not created as a "Bard with a bow". It's an Archer that later learned to use songs to support their party members.

When 1.0 ended and ARR was released, the same class/job combination carried over. It isn't the Bard you're comparing it to because it was born as an Archer first.

Over time, SE's obsession with homogenization has caused jobs and classes to lose some of their uniqueness in that they just exist for the sole purpose of their role, in this case DPS. It isn't lazy design, it's just been streamlined from the original playstyle when it was introduced under this name.

[Connor]

.

By design, Bard was not created as a "Bard with a bow". It's an Archer that later learned to use songs to support their party members.

When 1.0 ended and ARR was released, the same class/job combination carried over. It isn't the Bard you're comparing it to because it was born as an Archer first.

Over time, SE's obsession with homogenization has caused jobs and classes to lose some of their uniqueness in that they just exist for the sole purpose of their role, in this case DPS. It isn't lazy design, it's just been streamlined from the original playstyle when it was introduced under this name.

How does this contradict people’s issues with the job identity? Personally I’ve been saying all this time that I think there should be a balance between the ‘archery’ and ‘song’ elements and that the lack of this balance makes the job feel much less like ‘An archer that learned to use songs to support their party’.

I do agree that SE’s obsession with homogeneity has come at the cost of job identities, and this isn’t an issue limited to Bards. And to clarify, I’m not claiming that Bard has ended up this way because developers were lazy or somehow incompetent, just that I feel they’ve moved too far away from the original playstyle, which was playing songs to support the party as the cost of personal DPS, and managing song usage to make best use of your support whilst still maximising Damage, plus DoT management and Bloodletter procs to keep the DPS interesting.
We still have a song rotation, sure, but it doesn’t feel like much when the songs are used once every 30 seconds for personal DPS, to give you 30 seconds of increased personal DPS, then during those 30 seconds your personal DPS builds your job gauge which you can use to (theoretically) increase personal DPS. The power of a Bard’s song comes from the fervent desire to protect their comrades (as per the lore), but with the current Bard design it often feels you’re doing everything solely for your own DPS gains. It’s as if that power now is but a fervent desire to eliminate anything in the Bard’s path.

I don’t agree that it’s accurate to claim that that Bard’s current design is in any way similar to it’s original design at release (mostly notably because it was so obscenely powerful it had to get hit with a heavy nerf bat), the only remaining elements are DoT management and hitting procs. When the developers have made changes to Bard, these changes have always affected Archer because it exists solely to become a Bard now. The most clear example of this was when Swiftsong still existed, and was learned as an Archer (this was back in 2.0). Despite being supposedly just a normal Archer, you would still pull out a harp to sing. This is just one example of how Archer exists solely for Bard, not the other way around. That may have been the case in 1.0, but it would be more accurate to say that Bard is the original design now and Archer is simply their way of building up to it (because they don’t have the ability to fully separate classes and jobs). This can be applied to most jobs, most notably Scholar/Summoner and how Arcanist had to have abilities accomodating the jobs, but the jobs required no abilities to accommodate Arcanist (and a by-product of Arcanist existing to become two jobs resulted in things like Scholars having access to an extended damage kit and Summoners having access to healing/raise spells)

[Drayos]

Like Connor said.

But I have to ask, are you seriously thinking you are more objective in your view reading the job description as it was explained and the job title is literally Bard. I'm not sure how many RPG games out there you place, but this is so far removed Bard.

I didn’t place a self opinon on weather I think it’s fits the job, I just said it isn’t designed badly.

My argument was I don’t think it was “laziness” that brought them to rolling bard out this way.

I haven’t seen a good bard since I left Everquest 1 and j doubt I will ever find a iteration of bard I loved as much as Everquest 1s

[TcomJ]

I didn’t place a self opinon on weather I think it’s fits the job, I just said it isn’t designed badly.

My argument was I don’t think it was “laziness” that brought them to rolling bard out this way.

I haven’t seen a good bard since I left Everquest 1 and j doubt I will ever find a iteration of bard I loved as much as Everquest 1s

"The rotations smooth, it works together. And it isn’t flawed objectively. Simply it doesn’t suit you."
"I haven’t seen a good bard since I left Everquest 1 and j doubt I will ever find a iteration of bard I loved as much as Everquest 1s"
That's your personal opinion of the DPS rotation.

Like Connor says, you are delusional. You haven't even up bard to 80 but MCH. Do you guys honestly have to go make opinion of other people's main just to make yours feel better?

[TcomJ]

And how is that a problem on SE's side or becoming lazy like wow? Did you want a more complicated class with a long rotation? if they wish to make the job more casual friendly/simplified is that really a big issue? You yourself agree dpswise bard is on a good spot so I don't see the problem there.

"Oh my I don't want to support and lose my pew pew mechanic", perhaps you should read again and stop with the strawman.

But if adding songs and utility back make it sooo much more complicated for you, you haven't played bard since ARR, so why bother complaint here?


....You never played bard before, I check your profile....-_-

[RoyalBeef]

I didn’t place a self opinon on weather I think it’s fits the job, I just said it isn’t designed badly.

My argument was I don’t think it was “laziness” that brought them to rolling bard out this way.

I haven’t seen a good bard since I left Everquest 1 and j doubt I will ever find a iteration of bard I loved as much as Everquest 1s

This, EQ bard was the most fun thing to play ever

Personally, I couldn't care less about a job's lore. I want it to feel good while playing it. And brd does exactly that in 5.0

[LunaFaelyn]

Right now bard is a divided community. Those who loved the feeling of helping other rather than big damage. And those that thought it should still be an archer and are getting their fill of power in ShB. Simply stated by SE description of the job bards are a support job. https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/bard/ So it is the identity crisis that is making bard mains upset. The headphone analogy was spot on. LOL. The combat does feel good in ShB but the "bard" part feels selfish and empty. IMO, if they would just change our name to ranger and give us pets or give us meaningful songs to serenade our teams with, this topic would be sated.
Like Connor stated, SE just has trouble separating a job from it's original iteration. It's one reason SUM/SCH always felt awkward to me. It's just that ARC/BRD stayed on the same job. And to dumb bard down, they took away meaningful song to make it feel like an upgraded archer instead. Heck the lvl 80 job quest even feels like a joke towards bard with it's deep irony.
I wish I would have play EQ or even FF11 bard so I could compare to FF14.

[RoyalBeef]

I wish I would have play EQ or even FF11 bard so I could compare to FF14.

In EQ songs were basically spells/buffs that only lasted 3 serverticks each (~18 seconds) compared to buffs from actual casters that lasted up to 4 hours, but you coul weave them together, so good bards constantly kept 3-4 songs up (basically having the same ping issues MCHs complain about ^^). Effects were everything from +180% runspeed to increased mana+hp regen, cc ing mobs, damage shiielding the tank, slowing the mob, snaring the mob, +60% attack speed, aoe damage. Also there were different instrument types (drums, brass, voice, wind and string iirc) which would modify the songs of that type, often making the bard mroe efficient when wielding the correspeonding instrument to the song they were currently singing rather than wielding weapons, so you were not only selecting the 4 appropriate songs for the current situation out of your kit of probably 100 or more, weaving them nonstop but also switching between instruments constantly every 6 seconds lol. Due to the runspeed and abilitie to split pulls you were also often ssigned puller, finding mobs (bards could track) and bringing them to your group. We were labeled antisociel jerks bc you never had time to participate in party chat due to being to busy, but there was never a party that didn't appreciate a good brd because they boosted party performance like no other. Good times ^^

[LunaFaelyn]

In EQ songs were basically spells that only lasted 3 serverticks each (~18 seconds) but you coul weave them together, so good bards constantly kept 3-4 songs up (basically having the same ping issues MCHs complain about ^^). Effects were everything from +180% runspeed to increased mana+hp regen, cc ing mobs, damage shiielding the tank, slowing the mob, snaring the mob, +60% attack speed, aoe damage. Also there were different instrument types (drums, brass, voice, wind and string iirc) which would modify the songs of that type, often making the bard mroe efficient when wielding the correspeonding instrument to the song they were currently singing rather than wielding weapons, so you were not only selecting the 4 appropriate songs for the current situation out of your kit of probably 100 or more, weaving them nonstop but also switching between instruments constantly every 6 seconds lol. Due to the runspeed and abilitie to split pulls you were also often ssigned puller, finding mobs (bards could track) and bringing them to your group. We were labeled antisociel jerks bc you never had time to participate in party chat due to being to busy, but there was never a party that didn't appreciate a good brd because they boosted party performance like no other. Good times ^^

That sounds like fun!