Post-Shadowbringers Speculation

[Jaywalker]

Been trying to resist doing a double-post-in-thread-I-started deal, but had a couple of other bits cross my mind that don't fit in other threads.

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

I don't think we've seen the last of bizarro time/space travel. And while I might be wrong/take this speculation with a big grain of salt, I'm starting to suspect we might not have even seen the last of Emet-Selch.

Technically speaking I can think of two straightforward ways he could come back without breaking with logistics of the universe, one tying to the clone bodies (which were emphasized too hard to just get discarded offhand imo) and one with the Alexander stuff. I also am suspicious because while it's possible Amaurot will simply degrade in similar fashion to the Warring Triad statues in Azys Lla (trees are already dying :<), the fact that there are shade vendors and NPCs to talk to has me unbelievably suspicious. That and they built his character up insanely, insanely well and it would surprise me a little if he was gone this fast.

I don't mean any of this in a wishful-thinking way, knowing the guy got popular. After finishing MSQ I just went "well he's dead and gone and that's done" but now I'm starting to wonder a little. Especially since Minfilia pulled so many weird sticking-around moves on this front too.

Slightly different note, Lahabrea being a really powerful Amaurotine creation specialist and doing so much ritual stuff reminded me of the fact that he oh-so-dramatically exclaimed that the Ultima Weapon was powered by the Heart of Sabik, demonstrating a fraction of Zodiark's power.

"WHAT THE HELL IS SABIK????" has become a question that keeps me up at night, and if this doesn't come back and get addressed I don't know what I'll do with myself.

At this point I'm starting to wonder if it's the heart of one of Lahabrea's coworkers in the Convocation of Fourteen who sacrificed themself to Zodiark, but it's still wild speculation.

[LineageRazor]

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

If you read the text nodes scattered through the second leg of the Twinning, it discusses how the Ironworks was tackling the problem of how to travel through time (which would be necessary, to undo what had been done) - and that they found a potential solution based on a study of Primals. Retrospectively, I suspect that research mostly focused on one Primal in particular: Alexander, who became the template for the final boss. How they were able to study Alexander while he's sealed away is unclear, but it was definite foreshadowing for the final boss of the dungeon.

[Jaywalker]

If you read the text nodes scattered through the second leg of the Twinning, it discusses how the Ironworks was tackling the problem of how to travel through time (which would be necessary, to undo what had been done) - and that they found a potential solution based on a study of Primals. Retrospectively, I suspect that research mostly focused on one Primal in particular: Alexander, who became the template for the final boss. How they were able to study Alexander while he's sealed away is unclear, but it was definite foreshadowing for the final boss of the dungeon.

Ah will double check! I desperately didn't want to delay my party at the time haha, but that sounds crazy interesting. Still think there's going to be more going on there, this plot can only thicken from here lol. Thanks for letting me know!

[Iscah]

First, keep thinking back to The Twinning and how a variant of Alexander wound up being the boss. At the time just kind of went "oh that's odd" but looking back I think that's going to be really significant. Emet-Selch had a whole conversation with G'raha about how the Crystal Tower and Allagan technology by rights shouldn't be enabling time travel or interdimensional physical teleportation between shards as the WoL/D manages. And G'raha gives a weird non-answer when he asks.

Worth noting in G'raha's "non-answer" (which is still very vague and I'm not sure what some of it was alluding to) - they tamed the "wings of time" which is a specific phrase that is used to describe Alexander's powers.

Alexander is definitely key to, at very least, what they were doing in the Twinning and how they got their time machine functioning. The central chamber is structured resembling Alexander's core (the Heart of the Creator raid), with the huge hanging crystal and the pool of green aether at the bottom.

The three datalogs correspond to the three Ironworks raids (and their numbers to the relevant game patches): Datalog 2.5 covers opening the tower and finding G'raha; 3.5 discusses time travel and alludes to Alexander; 4.5 discusses traversing the aetherial rift, and Omega's ability to do so. Together, the three elements that they will need to construct their time machine.

Ah will double check! I desperately didn't want to delay my party at the time haha, but that sounds crazy interesting. Still think there's going to be more going on there, this plot can only thicken from here lol. Thanks for letting me know!

If you've got one of your text logs set up to display scripts (there are separate settings for NPC 'battle dialogue' and normal script), you can skim through the text while you're in the dungeon, then open up the log and read it properly afterwards.

[Nononu]

I have to agree, uncertainly though, that I don't think this is the last we'll see of Emet.

Firstly, as you said... they just built him up *way, way* too well to just let that be the end. In my humble opinion, and realizing it's entirely subjective, he's just way too good of a character. (I don't even want to say villain. He did horrible things, but he's not a psychopath, and yes I'm sorry I would have loved to have helped him. Not all villains need redemption, I agree, but... he just wanted his home back. That and how utterly hunched over he was at the end, so tired of everything, so world weary, broke me.)

Secondly - and I only watched the cutscene ONCE, because I just can't bring myself to watch it again just yet - the auracite that was attempted to contain him broke into pieces in Hades' body, instead of remaining whole (which would make me think it would be weaker for that, but I don't know and I have no evidence to back that up). The final piece he pulled out. And at the very end, Emet *is still there*. Physically. He is *not contained* in the auracite. Nor was he consumed. He did crumble, but that's... not a big deal for an Ascian, or shouldn't be. Aside from their soul being contained and destroyed, they can't die. They just bodyswap. (I suppose an argument could be made that the thing we saw was his soul being destroyed and not really his body there, but.. ehn.. we just have too little information here to make a -solid- argument one way or the other.) Speaking of - literally one of the first things we see in regards to him is the many, many containers holding clones of his. I just find it hard to believe that Squeenix would show that for pretty much no reason, if he truly is indeed 100% dead.

There is so much more that could be done with him, storywise, and a lot to lose (I feel) if that was it for him. And let's be real - Sqeenix LOVES a good non-psychopathic antagonist redemption arc. Maybe Gaius is enough for them... but I doubt it.

This probably adds nothing to the discussion, but I just have really strong feelings about Emet-Selch and the only thing I regret is there wasn't *more* with him. He quickly shoved Shadowbringers into being my favorite expac with his characterization alone. So I'd really, REALLY like to see more done with him.

Edit: I would like to add, and again this is only opinion, that him denying redemption at the end from everyone STILL begging him to turn away, just is too close to Zenos' whole arc in Stormblood. Even at the end, Lyse was still begging him to rethink everything despite what he had done - same for everyone (but mostly the twins and the WoL) and Emet. They both denied turning away from their path... now, personally, I think it'd be a FANTASTIC parallel if we still had "revived" Zenos on the war path (as that's all he's shown to be interested in) vs "revived" Emet-Selch turning away to be shown that, hey, yes, we're sundered, we're not less, look at all we've done, look at all we could do, you could have a place here, etc. I like parallels in stories though, so again. Opinion. Grain of salt.

[FaerieAura]

I have to agree, uncertainly though, that I don't think this is the last we'll see of Emet.

I don't think it is, either. His glamours still linger in Amaurot, for one. The lyrics for Tomorrow and Tomorrow almost make me think that maybe, just maybe, we might have been able to break Zodiark's hold on him, and help him realize that we are still the friend he remembers, that our reasons for opposing the plan to create Zodiark in the first place are still sound, and that we won't forget the past. But maybe, just maybe, the future that has been created is worth fighting for, too. Maybe the best way to remember the legacy of the Ascians isn't to fight to restore the past, but to move forward to a new future. I don't know. I hope that he has the capability of realizing that, if he still exists in some form. He has so much sorrow, so much pain.

I really, really just wanted to give him a hug after that fight.

[Iscah]

Secondly - and I only watched the cutscene ONCE, because I just can't bring myself to watch it again just yet - the auracite that was attempted to contain him broke into pieces in Hades' body, instead of remaining whole (which would make me think it would be weaker for that, but I don't know and I have no evidence to back that up).

The auracite didn't shatter - Thancred deliberately broke it and (if I'm remembering correctly) targeted multiple masks across Hades' body.

[Nononu]

I don't think it is, either. His glamours still linger in Amaurot, for one. The lyrics for Tomorrow and Tomorrow almost make me think that maybe, just maybe, we might have been able to break Zodiark's hold on him, and help him realize that we are still the friend he remembers, that our reasons for opposing the plan to create Zodiark in the first place are still sound, and that we won't forget the past. But maybe, just maybe, the future that has been created is worth fighting for, too. Maybe the best way to remember the legacy of the Ascians isn't to fight to restore the past, but to move forward to a new future. I don't know. I hope that he has the capability of realizing that, if he still exists in some form. He has so much sorrow, so much pain.

I really, really just wanted to give him a hug after that fight.

I forgot to mention that about Amaurot, too. I noticed that - I went back to grab a quest there, and was stunned to see it still "standing". Squeenix has shown they don't mind making areas look one way before x happens and they look different - I'd be surprised if they got lazy with Amaurot. They could have easily just made it shattered hulks of towers - they obviously had that resource ready (from the ones you see as part of the Odon's Cups).

I'm wondering if it's not possible that he intentionally set everything up to have the WoL "destroy" him. There's a myriad of reasons I can think of where this might be a good thing, though plenty are far-fetched. My main one however, is this: maybe the way we did it flushed his mind of the tempering of Zodiark, like you mention. The only evidence I have is that, while a lot of what he says right before the Amaurot dungeon is unlocked is horrible and cruel... the expression on his face is *hurt*. I'm no psychologist or anything of the sort, but Squeenix modeled his face to look that way for a reason, and it's not pure anger, or a sneer on his face. It's "this hurts me to say this". Also, we know that the only way to "cure" tempering is through death - but Zodiark's tempering isn't the normal type of tempering, is it? At least, it doesn't seem to me. And either way, Emet - or any other Ascian - isn't just some person. So while a tempered Ascian may "die" (not a permanent death), it may not remove the tempering. But the WoL -used- their surplus of Light against Emet, and... afterwards, didn't Alisae, or was it Y'shtola, talk about about the WoL had a surplus of Light vs Emet's surplus of Dark? I'm going to post this, go rewatch the cutscenes, and then edit with a better argument for this. I've got a thought and I don't know if any of this makes any sense but here we are.

The auracite didn't shatter - Thancred deliberately broke it and (if I'm remembering correctly) targeted multiple masks across Hades' body.

Sorry, as I said, I only watched the cutscene once (and I'm about to go remedy that). Still, my main point is: the auracite didn't remain in his body, we hit him with a "blade of light" only after he had removed the biggest spear, and Emet's physical body (as far as I know) was still -there- in the, uh, people space. It was not contained in any of the auracite. ...I think.

[TankHunter678]

-snip-

Do keep in mind that at the phase transition he destroys his physical body because it was holding him back. He literally reduced himself to just a soul and we put an axe through his core.

[Nononu]

Then, what was it we saw in the end, that asked us to remember? Just his soul? I was assuming that he didn't -destroy- his physical body, just... dropped it. Sort of like taking off some clothes.