Why are people complaining about SMN damage?

[Angry_Evil]

Not to say "git gud", but isnt that the whole point of having different complexity jobs? If you're bad you should deal more DPS with an easier class. If you're good you should DPS more with the harder class, and if you are So-So maybe deal equal damage lol.

Exactly. And SMN doesn't do enough damage to justify all the hoops we need to jump to play it optimally. It just feels not worth it. Especially when you can play BLM and do tons more damage with less effort.
But like... damage is whatever, if job wasn't a buggy mess and actually fun to play and optimize instead of garbage r4 stacking damage wouldn't be a problem. Tho I think people would still complain but it would've been less justified.

[Aomine1992]

Well, I guess I only have SCH (duh) and BRD at 80, so I'm comparing SMN to 2 of the only 4 jobs people are actually more disappointed in than SMN.

But I have some more considerations:



Not to say "git gud", but isnt that the whole point of having different complexity jobs? If you're bad you should deal more DPS with an easier class. If you're good you should DPS more with the harder class, and if you are So-So maybe deal equal damage lol.

I mean, back in stormblood I leveled MCH and I really enjoyed it leveling up, but at end-game stuff I found out I sucked hard and was shit with it even though it was one of the 4 top jobs of the moment, together with ninja, bard and dragoon. Then I tried RDM and SMN and I found out I dealt more dmg as RDM and even more as SMN. So maybe I'm a "so-so" player.

Also, in most duties I've done and tracked DPS this expansion, other SMN were good and most ninjas dealt really low dmg. Probably because it's a hard job most people don't use it right.

You completely missed every point obviously! Why deal equal dps on a much more complex and punishing job. BLM is an example while not complex they suffered because of mechanics in previous expansions hence why they had high dps to compensate. Also to help you out my dps is great while I notice other SMNs doing sub 9k dps in full 440 gear all the time.

Stop your idiocy cause it looks bad and also NINs don’t deal low dmg cause they suck they deal low dmg cause they are under tunned.

[Aizomi]

Well, my idiocy looks bad but your anger issues dont? Calm down please.

Also, I don't know how much damage SMN are doing in relation to RDM. I just responded to a specific comment you posted saying that complexity makes them deal less damage:

"Complexity makes X deal less damage than Y" means that complexity makes people unable to fully use its capacities and that lowers its damage.
To which I responded "yeah, that's the point".
And now you are saying "they do equal damage even though they are harder", meaning "if played to their full capacity they still do the same damage".

That could very well be true, but that's not something that was said anywhere in this thread beforehand. So don't say I missed the point, when you didn't make it to begin with.

Also, while I didn't compare SMN to RDM, I did compare them to BRDs. BRDs do way lower damage, are also complex, and don't really have much party buffs. They have one that is +- the same as SMN has AND they can't ress, which is a nice utility when you are not part of a really good team. And do you know who isn't part of a really good team? most people.

And what I meant by really low dps on ninjas is around 5-6k, lower than tanks. So it's not a question of being undertuned. And I mentioned ninjas because people seem pretty happy with them, undertuned or not.

[Scryar]

Damage jobs don't get balanced by complexity, nor should they. Otherwise easy jobs would never find a place in any raid group. They get balanced by their damage+support skills. That's why blm with exactly 0 support is the top dd. That's why ninja and dancer are the worst damagers. That's also why the damage gap between summoner and red mage is only as high as the gap betwen their support skills-

[Tsubaki75]

And what I meant by really low dps on ninjas is around 5-6k, lower than tanks. So it's not a question of being undertuned. And I mentioned ninjas because people seem pretty happy with them, undertuned or not.

Yes it is, not only did ninja get more complex, but instead of potency being tuned properly to keep our personal dps in the middle of the pack we got nerfed instead. The job is fun to play yes but it doesn't make up for that. So please leave us out of your caster debate; we have enough problems of our own.

[Miskatonic]

If you're going to be talking about dps numbers it helps to use the tools available to actually compare them: fflogs.com

The reason I dropped smn was strictly feelings based. The business of the rotation and the lack of flow combined with what felt like very little payoff. I want to love smn really bad, it was my first job that I ever leveled. But aside from the pure aesthetics of summoning pheonix and bahamut which are awesome, actually playing the job just feels bad.

[Taranok]

Even if you ignore damage, and ignore complexity, SMN has one glaring issue that trumps everything. It's a multitasking class that just fails at feeling good multitasking. Even the modern Bard feels really good to play, despite its thematic clash because it lost most of its support abilities in ShB, which is 90% of the problems Bard has right now. Bard, Machinist, Dancer, Red Mage, and Ninja are all multitasking-oriented jobs to different degrees, and every last one of them has a flow to it. The worst offender is Machinist, not because its rotation is bad, but because it is massively lag intolerant and anyone over a ping of 60 can find themselves exceptionally frustrated playing it because of that alone.

Summoner has no flow. It clashes, grates, and grinds with itself. Every time I have talked about Summoner, I have constantly brought up that it is clunky and cumbersome to play, never once personally bringing up damage as a reason why it feels bad outside of specific abilities that just don't feel good to use because damage is a temporary problem. Summoner needs a lot of help because of all of this.

[Trensharo]

If you're going to be talking about dps numbers it helps to use the tools available to actually compare them: fflogs.com

The reason I dropped smn was strictly feelings based. The business of the rotation and the lack of flow combined with what felt like very little payoff. I want to love smn really bad, it was my first job that I ever leveled. But aside from the pure aesthetics of summoning pheonix and bahamut which are awesome, actually playing the job just feels bad.

The people talking about DPS are completely missing the point. People are complaining because the class isn't fun for them to play. Doing less damage is okay if the class is enjoyable and that's your preference. It's the sacrifice you make for your choice.

But the class at least needs to feel fun to play. It feels bad. It has no cadence. It's just a staccato of button mashing that feels like rolling your face across the keyboard for no benefit.

[Milea]

Also I do this while not looking up "optimal rotations" and using a LOT of ruin2, because ruin3 is annoying to use with the pet skills, bahamut and phoenix (I think you lose wyrmwaves by trying to use ruin3, so i just go with 2 to maximize mobility and wyrmwaves). So even by not casting, which I think can reduce my DPS but can make the other stuff easier to use I get more damage on SMN.

Using ruin 2 in Bahamut is a giant dps loss now.

Wyrmwave no longer goes off from ogcd.

You are supposed to sit there casting ruin 3s.

Also, using anything in phoenix mode other than phoenix moves makes no sense and is a dps loss.

[Dyvid]

Honest question.

Basically it was top DPS, now it's not. You're always going to have people that play certain job purely because it is top DPS on FFlogs rather than the enjoyment of playing the jobs.

But SMN does have some gameplay problems right now that need to be ironed out.