Collective Unconscious and Sacred Soil

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Hello,
I've been wondering for a while about it, and i cant figure it out:
Before ShadowBringers, collective unconscious was a real powerhouse of healing, you could 'potencialy' keep it up for 15s, so people could get it up to 27s at most, and extend it, and it had 150 potency, meaning if you only casted it for the first tick, and extended it, it was a 25s heal, for a total of about 1200 potency.
If Celestial opposition could still extend the time, the nerf would have been ok, but now that you cannot extend it, i dont understand, it went from a 1200 max potency heal to a 250 max potency heal.
If that nerf was to make Asylum, which is in a way the WHM equivalent of CU, seem stronger, ok, CU still has the damage reduction, and is on the same cooldown, so it would have been half potency and shield.
BUT then come into play Sacred soil, the SCH's dome which was always about damage reduction, and which has, for no real justification, gain a 100 potency heal regen for 15s.
Meaning SCH has a 500 potency 10% damage reduction Dome, usable every 30s.
I remember a time where the justification for "regen" healer to not have shields is because they had regen, and "shielding" healer didnt have strong regen because... they have shield, so how come SCH gets a powerfull regen ability, and AST get the one he had nerfed to the ground?
The only thing that's doing, is further increase the SCH superiority over the nocturnal AST, and makes the SCH healing kit even more insane that it was before.

[Lagomorph]

CU was very overpowered in stormblood, but I'll agree that the nerf was way too heavy handed and sacred soil is really strong right now. CU definitely needs a buff, I think putting it back up to 100 potency would fine. Sacred soil is as strong as it is because the it isn't "free" like asylum or CU. The opportunity cost of using a sacred soil is not being able to use that aetherflow stack on indom/excog/lustrate. That being said though, it's up for debate whether sacred soil is too strong right now. I haven't quite decided the answer to that myself yet, but I would not be surprised nor would I be upset if sacred soil got a small potency nerf on the regen. I will say this though, the 10% damage reduction alone on sacred soil prior to shadowbringers was an extremely underwhelming way to spend an aetherflow stack; before enhanced sacred soil, it was almost always a waste to use unless it actually prevented people from dying.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Well, i would be fine if SS was 15% reduction, 20% would feel too powerfull (or would need an increased cooldown)

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

[Seraphor]

Well, i would be fine if SS was 15% reduction, 20% would feel too powerfull (or would need an increased cooldown)

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

I think CU should keep its 10% damage reduction regardless, otherwise Diurnal AST has no raid mitigation.

I think:

Collective Unconscious
Either increase the heal potency to say 80, or extend the duration to 24s.

Celestial Opposition
Either increase the initial cure potency to 200, or reduce the recast to 60s.

I would say buff the potency of one, and alter the duration/recast of the other.

[HyoMinPark]

CU should be imo:
noct => 10% reduction
Diurnal => 80 regen potency
Both: 5-8% damage buff to people in the dome while it is chaincasted (would need to do the math for it to be a buff to party while taking into consideration AST cannot move/cast)

Back in 3.0, Collective Unconscious used to only give damage reduction while in Noct sect—it only had a regen in Diurnal. No one used it, so they added the regen to it so that both sects basically did the same thing. I don’t think reverting to this would be a good idea, especially since Noct AST is still more expensive and less efficient compared to Diurnal AST. Let’s not make that more so—the regen is more important than the mitigation, as it was usually used for the former as opposed to the latter in most instances.

[ForteNightshade]

CU was very overpowered in stormblood, but I'll agree that the nerf was way too heavy handed and sacred soil is really strong right now. CU definitely needs a buff, I think putting it back up to 100 potency would fine. Sacred soil is as strong as it is because the it isn't "free" like asylum or CU. The opportunity cost of using a sacred soil is not being able to use that aetherflow stack on indom/excog/lustrate. That being said though, it's up for debate whether sacred soil is too strong right now. I haven't quite decided the answer to that myself yet, but I would not be surprised nor would I be upset if sacred soil got a small potency nerf on the regen. I will say this though, the 10% damage reduction alone on sacred soil prior to shadowbringers was an extremely underwhelming way to spend an aetherflow stack; before enhanced sacred soil, it was almost always a waste to use unless it actually prevented people from dying.

Let's be honest here. What are you using Aetherflow stacks on at this point? Scholars are throwing down Sacred Soils for giggles now because they literally don't need to use all their AF before it comes off cooldown. The opportunity cost is more or less an illusion. CU needs to brought back to what it was in SB or brought down to a 60s CD with 100 potency regen. Unless, of course, they do renege and let Scholar have Energy Drain back.

[Lagomorph]

Let's be honest here. What are you using Aetherflow stacks on at this point? Scholars are throwing down Sacred Soils for giggles now because they literally don't need to use all their AF before it comes off cooldown. The opportunity cost is more or less an illusion. CU needs to brought back to what it was in SB or brought down to a 60s CD with 100 potency regen. Unless, of course, they do renege and let Scholar have Energy Drain back.

Scholars having nothing to spend their aetherflow on is a whole separate problem unrelated to this. Right now I lustrate for about 20k. If I want to dump an aetherflow stack on a sacred soil right now, it has to at least be better than a lustrate, meaning it will mitigate more than 20k damage. This happens most often when raidwide damage goes out. But then it's a waste unless that damage would kill people or in the rare scenario where both healers have no more aoe healing cooldowns left available. The other instance this would happen is when the tank would take 200k or more damage over sacred soil's duration. How often does this happen actually? I'd say very rarely. I'd very much rather to not have to use a stack on the current sacred soil if I don't need to, that's true. I'd also rather sacred soil not be reverted to it's near-useless state where a meager lustrate is usually a far better option.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Scholars having nothing to spend their aetherflow on is a whole separate problem unrelated to this. Right now I lustrate for about 20k. If I want to dump an aetherflow stack on a sacred soil right now, it has to at least be better than a lustrate, meaning it will mitigate more than 20k damage. This happens most often when raidwide damage goes out. But then it's a waste unless that damage would kill people or in the rare scenario where both healers have no more aoe healing cooldowns left available. The other instance this would happen is when the tank would take 200k or more damage over sacred soil's duration. How often does this happen actually? I'd say very rarely. I'd very much rather to not have to use a stack on the current sacred soil if I don't need to, that's true. I'd also rather sacred soil not be reverted to it's near-useless state where a meager lustrate is usually a far better option.

SS also has a regen AoE now, with 100 potency regen, which mean 500 potency heal AoE.
That's the point we're discussing.

[Lagomorph]

SS also has a regen AoE now, with 100 potency regen, which mean 500 potency heal AoE.
That's the point we're discussing.

Yes and not the one I was responding to. I was responding to someone arguing that the opportunity cost was not present, something that I cited for the reason being sacred soil was so strong. Here I was directly comparing the old sacred soil the the opportunity cost of a lustrate, and stating why I wouldn't waste a stack on the old soil even if I had extra stacks. This is arguing against the people (including you, right?) who feel like having a regen at all is too powerful. Increasing the mitigation on sacred soil is not a good solution either. Doing this would resign it to being nothing more than an additional tank cooldown in dungeons, and would trivialize many instances where coordinated mitigation was needed in raid by letting the sch pretty much solo mitigate it (here I'm specifically thinking of morn afahs from ucob and primal roulette from uwu). I said what I said because while 500 potency may be too strong, removing the regen and giving it extra mitigation like you suggested is an extremely bad idea.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

Well, i proposed to up the mitigation because it was supposed to be the primary role of the dome since ARR, and now every healer has the same damage reduction tool. (where SCH had an advantage in there before.)
A 100 potency regen on OGCD which tick 5 times and reduce damage is a nobrainer for aetherflow, its more powerfull than indom, lustrate or excog. Unless there is no party buster or everyone has to run everywhere for 15s, or any other very specific situation.