[Spoilers] I’m irrevocably Unimpressed

[Daralii]

Genocide is okay if you don't think people are alive. What an interesting philosophical debate that would be.

Y'shtola already tried to have it.

[Vercinotrix]

To turn back the the specifics of the discussion: I can understand why the Ascians would want to restore their world. And I felt pity for Emet, especially in those last moments - "I will remember", my character promised him.

All the same, I cannot condone his actions in any way. That he can tell a person to their face that they're worthless and less than human and everything they have been through means nothing. I can understand why he feels that way but cannot approve of it. It tells me he is uncompassionate, when compassion is a trait I value highly, and places no value on the lives of people unlike himself. He has closed his eyes to the new lives going on around him, insisting only the old ones matter.

I can understand, I can wish it turned out differently, but there is no way I can agree with his intent to sacrifice countless lives for the few he once knew.

If a character with such intentions was presented as the protagonist, unless extremely convincingly done, they would still be a villain. I could appreciate it as a well-written story, but not think it was the right thing to do.

There's a clear narrative in this game of the conflict between moving forward and appreciating life as it is, versus dwelling in the past. The heroes speak earnestly of life as we know it - imperfect, fleeting and beautiful, where every life matters and every person should do their best to care for one another. These are ideas that echo my own thinking, and I am glad every time the protagonists express them. These are the people that I want to be victorious - because that is the outcome that will be a "good ending" to the story for me, and I love this world and characters too much to hope for anything else for them.

More eloquently put than I bothered to, but pretty much this.

[Alleo]

Someone please help me understand why the bad guys are never allowed to win?

Something seemed awfully wrong about the way Emet-Selch was taken out. By all accounts, he should have won.

I mean, are Ascians even evil?

Well lets see: Someone comes from the far away past in our present and say that he wants to have their people back and for that he needs to kill everyone of us, which are billions of people. What would you call them?

They had their chance to live and tragically it did not end well. But to give the future generations a chance a lot of the suriving Ancients sacrificed themselves. It was their will to have the others (maybe their own lovers or children) survive and their home rebuilt. Then the 13th Ascians seemingly were not fine with that afterwards, trampeled on the wishes of the death and wanted to kill the future ones, wich may have included the children of the death or the children of these children. And people were like: Nope sorry wont accept that and with that life was split. The time for the Ascians are over. Its as simple as that.

[Lersayil]

Nor did the people who summoned Zodiark 'destroy the world' as previous posters have claimed. The summoner of Hydaelyn destroyed the world.

Great post overall, but this actually is something of a revelation I never thought about. If what Hydaelyn did is basically a Rejoining in reverse... then she - and her creators by proxy - is responsible for the the death of everyone save the three major Ascians of the original world, and we basically lose all moral high ground.

Admittedly its possible that she did it so that the Source was untouched, only with lesser souls... but from what we know that seems unlikely (since they say that nobody remembered)? But then again rejoining doesn't seem to bear any ill effect on the denizens of the Source, so maybe the reverse is also true?

[Vidu]

I wouldn't say he was actually going for the suicide route, seeing the last cutscene where he pulls himself back from the brink of dissolving by sheer will and determination for his cause (whichafter we pepper him with auricite). He did say however that he's always testing the lesser races. It's possible that he fighting us, is the ultimate test given after we dragged ourselves to him after the last failed test, finished his illusionary dungeon of a world ending scenario, and making a somewhat convincing argument for our case? Something akin to newfound respect maybe?

He did say that given the choice he wouldn't fight us directly when we first met him.

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit with expressing this the right way - I'm not trying to say "Oh, he wanted to die from the beginning and would have just jumped of a bridge if he could".
Its a bit mor subtle than that - more along of lines of "If I get killed in the end, thats fine". Or maybe not even that he wanted to die, but that he wanted to lose.

I'm mainly basing this on his numerous tests - if we wanted to kill us, he could have easly done so at any point that we werent prepared. And even if he wanted to play it fair (by his standards, at least), we had already lost in his eyes. The battle against him is our final test, but a test that felt a bit like... mmh... "made up on the spot". A bit like when you play with a child and you play something where one will win and one will lose and the child is losing but you make up some twist or final challenge that you know the child will win, maybe because you let it (if this makes sense at all).
His final test seemed to me like he finally wanted us to win - I got the vibe that he wanted us to win throughout the whole story. He didnt set out to kill us - and he kinda even saved out life by offering us a way to get rid off the light by channeling it for a cause.

I dont think he was suicidal, but I could imagine him being just tired. But thats still reaching, of course.

[Granyala]

On the other hand, we've already defeated Lahabrea, and he shouldn't be any more powerful than him...

The way I understood it: yes, he should have been. Lahabrea was only the speaker after all. I'm sure there were differences in power between Ascians as well.

To turn back the the specifics of the discussion: I can understand why the Ascians would want to restore their world. And I felt pity for Emet, especially in those last moments - "I will remember", my character promised him.

All the same, I cannot condone his actions in any way.

Of course we cannot. We can understand, we can empathize we can even try to negotiate but ultimately he forced us into a "me or you" position. Both parties gave their all in the fight for the right to exist and we were victorious.

That doesn't mean I have to feel good about this victory.
To be frank: it feels hollow... draining... sour. I can't but help wish that there had been another way. I find it befitting that they seemed to keep the changed victory animation where Ifalna merely closes her eyes for a brief moment instead of going the usual "yay!".

Imho, feeling like that about an antagonist is good writing.

[Corue]

Emet was the kid who had a rough life at home and set ant hills on fire for fun.

Sure you feel bad for him but he's kind of an ass.

[Lersayil]

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit with expressing this the right way - I'm not trying to say "Oh, he wanted to die from the beginning and would have just jumped of a bridge if he could".
Its a bit mor subtle than that - more along of lines of "If I get killed in the end, thats fine". Or maybe not even that he wanted to die, but that he wanted to lose.

I'm mainly basing this on his numerous tests - if we wanted to kill us, he could have easly done so at any point that we werent prepared. And even if he wanted to play it fair (by his standards, at least), we had already lost in his eyes. The battle against him is our final test, but a test that felt a bit like... mmh... "made up on the spot". A bit like when you play with a child and you play something where one will win and one will lose and the child is losing but you make up some twist or final challenge that you know the child will win, maybe because you let it (if this makes sense at all).
His final test seemed to me like he finally wanted us to win - I got the vibe that he wanted us to win throughout the whole story. He didnt set out to kill us - and he kinda even saved out life by offering us a way to get rid off the light by channeling it for a cause.

I dont think he was suicidal, but I could imagine him being just tired. But thats still reaching, of course.

I can sorta get behind that, but I still think that he was seriously trying to kill us at the end (at least from the point where the trial started). In the scenes beforehand we've earned the right to fight against our demise. He had no intention of letting us win, but we've earned the chance via the dungeon and the quasi-philosophical banter after.

Also, he said he'd try to recruit us if we passed his test, or kill us if we reject. What he didn't mention is that if we manage to kill him, we basically proved (in his eyes too) that the "lesser" races deserve to live over the ancients. After all, judging by his tests, banters and even the types of empires he nurtured, he did subscribe to the philosophy of "might makes right".

He also knew that our goals are irreconcilable. If we win we proved ourselves worthy of existing and he has no place in the world, as his sole raison d'etre left, was to bring back his people.

[Gwenorai]

Considering how emotional he gets when you talk, it does seem like he's tried to accept these new people. He gets so very frustrated when he talks about the new life, how he's lived countless of lives being with 'mortals' and every single time it has brought him something to weep over. I think people seem to forget that it's okay to like an antagonist, a well-written antagonist is like gold. But it doesn't mean they should win. But back to him and his personality. Emet has suffered a lot; his people have perished, his loved ones his family. The sundering takes place, and of course, he sees a new life. He tries to fit in with this new life, he tests them, and he finds them wanting. But think about it... you've gone from losing nearly everything only to try to find some comfort in these new beings, and then well, it didn't work out well for him. He has most likely loved some mortals, he's had children with them, cared for them and each time they have perished and died and slipped through his fingers like sand.

Back in his time, people didn't die; he didn't lose anyone - he considered himself 'happy'. We know throughout the story how 'tired' he seems to be getting. He's carrying the souls of so many, their emotions, their sorrow and rage. He refuses to let them go because if he does, then their memory will perish and to him, that means they will cease to exist. It's why he seems to almost plead with the WoL/WoD to remember that they once lived. And yeah, he certainly tried to kill us. During the trial, it seems like he's about to give up and allow defeat, but the emotions and memories of everything he stands for. For his people gave him that second wind. When we win he seems almost calm about it, to finally meet his end. An end of all the pain for him. It does make me wonder what he meant when he said about 'remember that we once lived' - yes it could certainly mean their race - but was the 'we' regarding their kind or did it also include the WoL who is hinted to be one of them and close to completion.

Further still his name 'Hades' is pretty telling seeing as Hades had to shoulder the task of protecting/guarding the dead.

Again, he's a good character but his end goal is something that we the protag can't allow. It is still countless deaths to bring back those who have been dead for millennia, their time is over.

[Vahlnir]

Again, he's a good character but his end goal is something that we the protag can't allow. It is still countless deaths to bring back those who have been dead for millennia, their time is over.

Well written post by all accounts. Still though, I was left wondering if we did the right thing in the end. The Ascians weren't really trying to be evil, and I think if things were reversed we would probably be doing the same thing,..their methods, however, left much to be desired. Even so our "victory" at the end was a pyrrhic one to me. The story has never really made me feel that way before. It's a good feeling in a way I suppose. This is probably the first MSQ in this game that I have gotten really invested in.