Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[QT_Melon]

I don't know if you are reading the thread but I said as much to the first point multiple times.

However, I didn't just say "one time" I'm saying it's in her best interests to be nice when she literally basically tasked you to it, and not simply every echo user.

[Theodric]

Hydaelyn reached beyond the boundaries of the game and Tempered a number of posters who flock to this board to forever argue in her favour, I reckon.

[Cilia]

On the point of Hydaelyn -

Her entire reason for being, her raison d'etre, is protecting the races of man from being sacrificed to Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed Ascians. She literally exists for that one reason. Hydaelyn does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future; she exists to make sure humanity has a future and, far as I can tell, is hands-off letting people do their own thing and only intervenes when her prime directive necessitates it.

Given she was created using the same Ascian creation magicks that create primals, has anyone considered she was created with imperfect knowledge of the situation? Primals are whatever their summoners want them to be, and if her creators didn't include that information, she wouldn't know it...

Regardless, even if Hydaelyn deliberately and knowingly lied about her conflict with Zodiark, that doesn't change the fact the Ascians have every intention of destroying all the shards via Rejoining and then sacrificing the entirety of mortal life to Zodiark to resurrect the dead Amaroutians. We'd need to oppose the Ascians anyway, and as Hydaelyn hasn't shown any sort of ill will toward the Warrior of Light or mortals in general, I don't see what the issue is.

Hydaelyn's entire reason for being is protecting the races of man from becoming fuel for Zodiark's resurrection of the dead Ancients. I don't understand why people are so insistent on pushing some kind of narrative that paints her as evil or malign.

(For the record Zodiark doesn't sound like he's evil either - just a wish machine created by the Ascians, for lack of a better term, but he still requires equivalent exchange. It's the Ascians' inability to let go of their glorious, dead civilization that's the issue at the end of the day.

[Dualblade]

On the point of Hydaelyn -

Her entire reason for being, her raison d'etre, is protecting the races of man from being sacrificed to Zodiark to resurrect the sacrificed Ascians. She literally exists for that one reason. Hydaelyn does not exist to determine or dictate humanity's future; she exists to make sure humanity has a future and, far as I can tell, is hands-off letting people do their own thing and only intervenes when her prime directive necessitates it.

Given she was created using the same Ascian creation magicks that create primals, has anyone considered she was created with imperfect knowledge of the situation? Primals are whatever their summoners want them to be, and if her creators didn't include that information, she wouldn't know it...

Regardless, even if Hydaelyn deliberately and knowingly lied about her conflict with Zodiark, that doesn't change the fact the Ascians have every intention of destroying all the shards via Rejoining and then sacrificing the entirety of mortal life to Zodiark to resurrect the dead Amaroutians. We'd need to oppose the Ascians anyway, and as Hydaelyn hasn't shown any sort of ill will toward the Warrior of Light or mortals in general, I don't see what the issue is.

Hydaelyn's entire reason for being is protecting the races of man from becoming fuel for Zodiark's resurrection of the dead Ancients. I don't understand why people are so insistent on pushing some kind of narrative that paints her as evil or malign.

(For the record Zodiark doesn't sound like he's evil either - just a wish machine created by the Ascians, for lack of a better term, but he still requires equivalent exchange. It's the Ascians' inability to let go of their glorious, dead civilization that's the issue at the end of the day.

To the last point

With our current information it seems that, at worst, Zodiark isn't evil in and of itself, but the goal of those who created it ultimately forces it into being an antagonist for anyone who isn't an Ascian simply because they aren't going to just lie down and die that easily.

[QT_Melon]

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

[EdwinLi]

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

Well i am still on the Theory that WoL's original Soul is not the 14th member but was a Neutral Path person (Think Shin Megami Tensei series) and wanted to find a better solution that does not end up with the world depending on these two Gods which will cost countless lives to create and maintain.

If we think this in a Shin Megami Tensei Series perspective we have Zodiark representing the Chaos Path faction and Hydaelyn representing the Law Path Faction. Of course Neutral Path is often the best outcome (and often True Ending path for SMT series) but it is a path where the people of the world learn to find peace between all races and not depend on Gods nor absolute Strength to determine their future.

However, in doing so the WoL's Original Soul may have lost his or her life before the solution that did not require a God to save the world was found because one of the factions (either someone who worshipped Zodiark or maybe the 14th member who supported Hydaelyn) prevent or killed WoL's Original Soul due to the "Neutral path" being a threat to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn's existence.

This would also mean going Neutral path may end up fighting the very being/source that caused Original Calamity.

[QT_Melon]

Well i am still on the Theory that WoL's original Soul is not the 14th member but was a Neutral Path person (Think Shin Megami Tensei series) and wanted to find a better solution that does not end up with the world depending on these two Gods which will cost countless lives to create and maintain.

If we think this in a Shin Megami Tensei Series perspective we have Zodiark representing the Chaos Path faction and Hydaelyn representing the Law Path Faction. Of course Neutral Path is often the best outcome (and often True Ending path for SMT series) but it is a path where the people of the world learn to find peace between all races and not depend on Gods nor absolute Strength to determine their future.

However, in doing so the WoL's Original Soul may have lost his or her life before the solution that did not require a God to save the world was found because one of the factions (either someone who worshipped Zodiark or maybe the 14th member who supported Hydaelyn) prevent or killed WoL's Original Soul due to the "Neutral path" being a threat to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn's existence.

This would also mean going Neutral path may end up fighting the very being/source that caused Original Calamity.

One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

[Daralii]

One of the reasons I'm also on #neitherprimal

Primals are flawed like their creators. and with some people's messing around with echo can be controlled to use primal for their own methods, so I'm concerned when you have one of the oldest primals about still trying to help out humanity and being weakened in the process by Calamities (returning it to lower power levels prior to the split) making it ripe for the eventual taking if circumstances present itself with people like Zenos.

I agree that the ideal outcome is man's future in man's own hands(#VarisWasRight), but I don't see how reaching that point is possible without relying on Hydaelyn's Blessing for the time being.

An unbroken Ascian still lives, which means new Ascians can be awakened and uplifted. Unless Elidibus surrenders for some reason, the WoL needs to be capable of standing toe-to-toe with him.

[Zackneifein]

I agree that the ideal outcome is man's future in man's own hands(#VarisWasRight), but I don't see how reaching that point is possible without relying on Hydaelyn's Blessing for the time being.

An unbroken Ascian still lives, which means new Ascians can be awakened and uplifted. Unless Elidibus surrenders for some reason, the WoL needs to be capable of standing toe-to-toe with him.

There is another solution :

If the WoL is able, one way or another, to recover all the shard of his soul, he could be able to oppose Elidibus without the help of anyone.

[Alleo]

Hydaelyn reached beyond the boundaries of the game and Tempered a number of posters who flock to this board to forever argue in her favour, I reckon.

So since the game is not at a point where Hydealyn is shown to be truly evil and the only thing against her is that she did not tell the whole truth once (even though we dont even know if she might not know better herself) we are tempered to her? Why should we not be allowed to argue for her? Because other posters want her to be evil? It could be that we are wrong, but not everything in this very story does turn out to be completely different either.

In the end she was created as an enemy against Zodiark who was a danger for the future generation. That means she was created for the purpose of protecting us all from him (including his tempered Ascians). But of course she is evil and needs to be killed because her view on this was not completely true!

And lets not forget that they are created by people with way different power levels. Even Zodiark seemingly only needed sacrifice for really huge (and nearly impossible) feats. They are not like our primals that fractured souls create, so we dont even know if they function the same. And if they dont take aether in times of peace then why should she be destroyed?

I like how that wasn't the point being made exactly but I figure someone was going to try to make it that.

It's obvious it's about one existence versus the other, but the fact people are looking for other points to rag on against one group to justify the conflict when that even shouldn't be part of the equation. Doesn't make one side "Good" and the other "Evil" when many of the the current races were perfectly willing to do very lore wise what they accuse the opposition of doing that's "bad and evil". In a sense nothing changed just who has the "Cooler crystal"

The thing is that the Ascians were ready to sacrifice their own people. This future generation were still just Ancient ones being born. Yet in their view somehow these people had less right to live than those that willingly(!) sacrificed their lifes so that their race can live on. They go against the will of their own people.

This is not were the recent spoken races came to the planet, summoned Hydealyn and thus destroyed the ancient race and split the world. It was their own race that did this to protect their children. Its like if someone finds a way in real life to bring back his long gone anchestors but to do that they will have to kill all the children that live right now. Would you not see that as bad? Its in a way understandable that loss can hurt but that gives them no right to sacrifice people of their own kind to get some back..

Hydealyn as far as we know was only summoned with the sacrifice of those willing to do that. And she was there to protect the future thus all the children. So sorry to say, for me that makes one side morally much better than the other. You can believe that they are both on the same level but to me there is a huge difference between having to split people up to give them a chance to live while sacrificing only oneself, or killing all those future generations forever to get people back that gave up their life on free will too..