SHB BLM is the peak of this game's job design

[Kabooa]

Wrong. Umbral Ice does not decrease the potency of the spell, only MP and cast time.

The reason you drop F3 in some AoE rotations is that after about 5 adds you get a higher PPS by using only AoE skills. The raw damage you get not using a GCD on a single target is higher even though you lose about 40% of the total strength on the first Flare.

So my bad on the numbers. It appers to be closer to a 25%-30% reduction.

[Hzex076]

So my bad on the numbers. It appers to be closer to a 25%-30% reduction.

So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

[Kabooa]

So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

Sounds like you can do either to be honest.

[Numenor1379]

So based on that example is it still worth throwing in the GCD F3 for the first flare or omitting it for a faster initial flare then full strength second flare?

Sounds like you can do either to be honest.

Less than 5 adds, use F3.

5 or more adds, skip F3.

[Hzex076]

Less than 5 adds, use F3.

5 or more adds, skip F3.

Sounds good, thanks for yalls input. That was really bugging me.

[Acidblood]

This is probably going to be my last post because of the forum post limit. F2 has always had some use, it just became increasingly niche with time. In SB F2 overtook Flare at something like 15 enemies because Flare's 78(?) potency minimum was below the 80 of F2 and F2 also had a faster cast time. F2 requires a large number of enemies to be worthwhile in Shadowbringers as well, which is why I only looked at the case with 10 enemies.

Intermediate level AoE prefers F2 because when you can only cast Flare once and have to wait for MP ticks, you overall PPS goes down, so you don't need as much PPS in a given cast to find a net increase in total PPS.

4 enemies, assuming instant MP ticks on transpose, I also don't know how many F2's you can actually cast, I just went with 3:

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 168
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
F2 = 80*4*1.8/3 = 192
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 188.5 PPS

F3 = 240*.7/2.5 = 168
Flare = (260 + 156*3)*1.8/4 = 327.6
Freeze = 100*4/2.5 = 160
Average = 185.0 PPS

Adding T2, I'm estimating that it procs for 50% of casts at 4 enemies. That's an effective PPS of 328 which increase the averages to 208.4 and 220.7 respectively.

Maybe I'm missing something (edit: these calculations are rough), but:
(168 + 192 + 192 + 192 + 327.6 + 160) / 6 = 205.3
(168 + 327.6 + 160) / 3 = 218.5

I just took another look at the BLM guide which led me to the wiki on Umbral ice stacks and it mentioned that it will reduce the potency of a fire spell by 30% for 3 three stack of umbral ice... is that correct as of 5.0?

From the testing I have done the values of -30% (x0.7) for Fire spells in UI and +80% (x1.8) for Fire spells in AF3 appear to still be correct.

Also, I'm not sure how the math turns out but the issue with using Flare straight from UI is that Aspect Mastery does not apply... i.e. you will eat your Umbral Hearts and most of your MP for a Flare with -30% potency. Casting Fire III from UI costs nothing (except a GCD) and you can then cast 2 full strength Flares (at +80% potency), or 3 with Manafont.

Edit(2) Updated: Did some (more correct) math and the cross over point appears to be 8 enemies (though the benefit is as little as 0.4%)... for 10 enemies the benefit is about 1%, and it caps out around 3%.

Edit(3): If you are using Triplecast (or even Swiftcast); i.e. lowering the effective cast time of Flare in AF to the GCD; then you should always enter AF with F3.

[Kabooa]

Also, I'm not sure how the math turns out but the issue with using Flare straight from UI is that Aspect Mastery does not apply... i.e. you will eat your Umbral Hearts and most of your MP for a Flare with -30% potency. Casting Fire III from UI costs nothing (except a GCD) and you can then cast 2 full strength Flares (at +80% potency), or 3 with Manafont.

I did it earlier. The break even point (when both do the same potency per second) was 5.08 enemies. Before that, F3 Flare is "Better", after that, Cold Flare is "Better". However, when you extrapolate this out to 5, 10, 15, enemies, then factor in Foul / T4 and potential procs, the short answer is

Use either.

[Acidblood]

Updated: Noob mistake with the averages, but the conclusion is still the same: Freeze spam > Fire II rotation :/

Crunching some more numbers on this AoE stuff, and, umm, maybe I've missed something but are you better off just spamming Freeze (and Thundercloud procs) from level 35 to 50 for AoE?

Maths:
Freeze (in UI) = 100 / 2.5s = 40 PPS per enemy.
Fire II (in AF3) = 80*1.8 = 144 / 3.0s = 48 PPS per enemy.

So we are OK so far, Fire II (while being cast in AF3) has a higher PPS... the issue comes in when you put it in a rotation, mainly that you can only cast 3 Fire II's before having to switch back to UI (with Freeze), and that the best(?) way to switch from UI back to AF is Fire III (a single target spell).

So a rotation of Fire III > Fire II > Fire II > Fire II > Freeze has a total potency of (168 + 576 + 576 + 576 + 280) = 2176 for 4 enemies and takes 14s; so 2176 / 14 = 155.4 PPS... but Freeze alone has a PPS of 40 x 4 = 160 for 4 enemies, and it doesn't get any better (it actually gets worse) as the number of enemies increase; so, ummm ???

Add to this that we don't even get AF3 until level 40 (Magick and Mend II) and it gets even worse. It gets a bit better at level 50, where adding in Flare increases the PPS of the rotation to greater than that of Freeze alone… even then though, using Flare without Umbral Hearts (to say nothing of having to Transpose and wait for an MP tick) is kind of clunky.

Thoughts?

[Kabooa]

Thoughts?

Never take the Black Mage outside Expert Roulette. :P

[Archwizard]

Wrong. Umbral Ice does not decrease the potency of the spell, only MP and cast time.

According to the wiki, each rank of UI reduces the potency of Fire spells by 10/20/30%, in addition to ranks of AF increasing it by 40/60/80%.

Mathematically that means any Fire spell cast at UI3 has about 40% of the potency of the same spell at AF3.