Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

[Tharne]

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

Isn't what she's telling in this cutscene utter bollocks (for the most part) though if we look at what we learned in ShB ?

[Daralii]

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

I feel like the "more power" she's talking about is the lives of all those that succeeded the then-current population in order to bring back what was lost. It's the harmony bit that's questionable, unless her personality/perspective was built off of #14.

Ten characters

[QT_Melon]

Isn't what she's telling in this cutscene utter bollocks (for the most part) though if we look at what we learned in ShB ?

To be fair my position is team #neitherprimal

From her perspective she could feel she's telling the truth, due to the nature of not being "Self aware" but she's part of the lifestream/aether as the will of the planet yes? It also could be part of retconning by the writers....so there is that too.


Are the Ascians a threat? Yes. It's their existence vs the current one.

However, I think the narrative of keeping the current status quo is a bit sketchy, and not without its own bias. As I stated, it's interesting how people in various threads are looking for ways to call Emet things like delusional "hey look their society isn't that great" when we are still riddled with the same problems that is hypocrisy at its finest. Our race lore discriminates with those different from us, and also frowns upon standards of non conformity to various degrees too.

I also am wondering about Urianger's moments of poisoning the well statements iirc was it him that said "What if we were already tempered?" and "What if we were fighting for the wrong side" when looking at the element chart? The musical cues were there, saying hey something's not right.

While again not sure if our past self left due to Zodiark to summon Hydaelyn still remains to be seen because there was definitely more than one person who sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn.

It's feasible that the 14th who left thought both sides were doing to much and was looking for a 3rd way prior to the sundering.

It's just that I get that Hydaelyn is helpful to new life, she sundered the planet and got quite a following. But there's also the saying you attract more flies with honey. :P

That said it's also possible since Zenos is likely being set up as the big bad and native PrimalHacker. The one primal that exists on this plane even though not exactly "accessible" is Hydaelyn. with things kicking up to be real turmoil n the future, we're in for quite a ride

5.0 will explore the roots of the FFXIV story. Most players who follow the story, probably already suspected that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are primals, so he didn't mind revealing that minor info. Why? Because there are tons of more surprises with a bigger impact. The dev team actually asked Yoshi-p if it was really okay to reveal the final "primal" secret and he said it was okay because that proves that the story is going to be that huge.

Also this quote

[b]After half way through 5.x, the story will unfold like a turmoil up to the end.

Potential world of ruin? (that may be far fetched but hey)

Sources: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...w_with_yoship/
https://game.watch.impress.co.jp/doc...w/1189186.html

[QT_Melon]

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...

I feel like the "more power" she's talking about is the lives of all those that succeeded the then-current population in order to bring back what was lost. It's the harmony bit that's questionable, unless her personality/perspective was built off of #14.

Ten characters

However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power line is interesting.

[Daralii]

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...



However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power is rather ironic

More rambling

But those that sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn would be doing so to prevent future generations from being sacrificed to Zodiark in order to restore and maintain the past. It's ironic and taints Hydaelyn's perception I'm sure, but I'd consider it a much nobler sacrifice. Those that were willing did so in order to protect future innocents, and more importantly to allow a future to exist. The most ironic part of the whole thing is that the Light-aspected primal was summoned to allow change, and the Dark-aspected primal was summoned to preserve stasis.

[Nayout]

So apparently, doing all 4 roles quest drops a pretty big reveal in a 5th quest, about the mysterious 5th member that you can see sometimes in the other cutscenes.

This thread shares the detail if any are curious.

If someone wants to see the quest I've uploaded it yesterday lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPnpVEIApqI

[QT_Melon]

More rambling

But those that sacrificed themselves to create Hydaelyn would be doing so to prevent future generations from being sacrificed to Zodiark in order to restore and maintain the past. It's ironic and taints Hydaelyn's perception I'm sure, but I'd consider it a much nobler sacrifice. Those that were willing did so in order to protect future innocents, and more importantly to allow a future to exist. The most ironic part of the whole thing is that the Light-aspected primal was summoned to allow change, and the Dark-aspected primal was summoned to preserve stasis.

Hmm only agreed by "interpretation"

However

By statement she was more talking about how to seal him, not how to continue life. Or how this life model is "Better" or the changes it caused.

Granted again this is by way of unfolding the plot - likely not to give away too much about origins.

I don't know about Hydaelyn being the nobler sacfrifice. I think the fact they summoned a primal in the first place to save the planet or do you think it should have died right off?

I'm just saying a road to hell was always paved with good intentions.

[Alleo]

As a point of interest.

I find it also interesting that Hydaelyn mentioned being at harmony with the existence of Zodiark and only counteracted when "more power was desired" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wu8j5_pzzU Really odd and in some ways convenient. And despite the Ascians involvement in rejoinings, interesting to note that it WAS Hydaelyn herself that told everyone to eliminate the Ascians even though it would cause an imbalance and flood of light like it did on the source. It ended up being in the Ascians interest to do it. That's why I find both sides to be sketchy. Also in other threads where people were upset about how much the Ancients were into conforming - and using that as a means to show how "Bad" they were aren't even looking at the current lore of their own people which may also have some rather oppressive beliefs among the races. I do believe in our right to exist but the way people were going about it - I find that the pots are calling kettles

There was that phrase about the winner gets to write history

About your post:

Yes Hydealyn was not truthful to us about that part but that does not take away the good things she has done before. In a way you can say that her words a partially true too with a certain view on this. If Zodiark had not needed more sacrifices that would include the future generation and thus had the Ascians not wanting the old ones back, then Hydealyn would not have been created. So she was forced to split him because he needed more power and to protect her people/children, which would be the future generation. Its just that she did not tell us that he came before her. But in the end its still a fact that part of the remaining Ancient ones did that and thus there was probably a quite good reason for her summoning.

Of course she is going to tell us to kill the Ascians, because as we found out, we simply have no common ground. She is there on the wish to protect the future generation, so why should she not say that we should kill them? Their existence simply should not be allowed if they dont change their way. We also have learned that a flood of light (or at least too much light) was the intended result for the Ascians for this shard. The death of that Ascian there might have thrown out the balance a bit too fast but in the end even without that, they would have created a calamity of light through other means. (Remember that the WoD of the first just simply did their job too well, thus the shard was forced more and more into stagnation/order which is kinda what Light is. We also just killed another one of the big bad Ascians and the source is fine. With the new information we got about the workings of Light and Darkness, of Hydealyn and Zodiark, we (imo) cant even say if such a imbalance would truly happen.

About Acient ones being conforming: The arguments in other threads that others and even I made was that these quests showed that they are far away from the perfect people that Emet made them out to be and that Amaurot may have not been the perfect heaven either. Its simple: If you dont conform they will keep an eye on you and it really has an even more sinister tone in the english version of that quest. And these points are there to show that no, they might have had more power (but as soon as creatures came they become overrun by fear...)but they are not that different to us. Thats kinda fits exactly into your point. Our own races are not perfect, they have their negative sides, but Emet believed that their lifes were much better than our imperfect ones..completely ignoring that they were not perfect either. [

Yes, I gathered that's what was meant...



However

I find that more ironic since it took the lives another group to summon her in the first place. People basically died to create her too, so desire for more power line is interesting.

About the needed sacrifice:

The problem is, that this seemingly was the only group necessary to summon and sustain her. (At least as far as we know right now) While Zodiark required 50% of the remaining living Ancient ones and then another 50% to heal the planet. I am quite sure if the sacrifices had stopped there, then Hydealyn would not have been summoned for that reason. But the Ascian (seemingly tempered by him) wanted the old ones back, even though those sacrificed themselves to save the remaining ones and the future ones..stepping on their wishes too..and would have sacrificed the whole new born lifes to get them back. So a couple of the last remaining 25% of that old race decided that this was enough and sacrificed themselves. This is the big difference here. Taking your own life to save countless others or cultivating the new generation only to harvest their souls without their consent in the hope of getting their old ones back.

[QT_Melon]

Yeah at this point tho we are recycling arguments done a couple pages ago.

It's okay she wasn't forthcoming cuz she was nice!

I mean I'm pointing out the basic problems with the arguments is that everyone picking a side is going spindoctor it to his/her viewpoint and people will look a flaws of the other side to spin doctor it to why other side is bad

[SaberMaxwell]

Yeah at this point tho we are recycling arguments done a couple pages ago.

It's okay she wasn't forthcoming cuz she was nice!

I mean I'm pointing out the basic problems with the arguments is that everyone picking a side is going spindoctor it to his/her viewpoint and people will look a flaws of the other side to spin doctor it to why other side is bad

10 characters

Let's take out the fourth wall for a second: Hydaelyn wasn't more forthcoming because the loremasters didn't want her to be. If she told us everything back in 3.4, 3.2, or even 2.0, it would have possibly been seen as an exposition dump and they would be out a significant amount of story shock for the future, not to mention that it's possible this twist wasn't even storyboarded back then either. The last time we spoke to Hydaelyn directly, iirc, was about four years ago irl in 3.4. It's worth keeping in mind concerning the "How dare Hydaelyn not reveal the tapestry of the universe to me the last time we spoke!" talk.

In universe, you're right, we are hearing conflicting stories from biased sources. We haven't even directly heard from Zodiark yet, either. It feels disingenuous to say that "Hydaelyn was just nice to us the one time" when she nearly expended her entirety of her strength (which would be antithetical to any power grab strategies, mind you) to protect us from getting dusted by Ultima Weapon.