[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[Enla]

Honestly Minfilia would have been better received by the fanbase if her writing was better. The character idea is solid, but the writing is so godawful as to turn even a positive basis into a net negative. Ryne is in every way a better written character in spite of being essentially a soft reboot. We get to /see/ her growth, we get to experience the story with her at our sides and how it all affects her on a personal level. We're not told she doubts herself and thinks she would be better off being consumed by the original Minfilia, we're /shown/ it. With an entire portion of the MSQ being dedicated to her resolve in this matter and how she grows slowly but surely into a more resolved character - all without abandoning all her doubts and the basis that made her character. She's still doubtful even up until the end. Her trauma and Thancred's indelicate way of raising her these past few years haven't just suddenly gone away because the plot demanded it. She is, in essence, a character /first/ and a plot device /last/.

Minfilia on the other hand is basically a character whose entire personality, skills, and participation in the plot are told to us. She's apparently a capable leader without whom the Scions would fall apart? Except the Scions are just fine without her and seem to be thriving with Tataru spearheading most things these days. We're told Minfilia works just as hard as everyone else, perhaps even harder, to keep the organization running? Yet every time we see her she's behind a desk telling /us/ to do her dirty work and when she isn't behind that desk she's once again being kidnapped. Which don't even get me started on as I'm still pissed about all the times we had to save her during ARR. Or the fact that she forgot how linkpearls work based on the numerous times she dragged us back to the Waking Sands to tell us something that could have been transmitted over pearl. Minfilia isn't a character in ARR, she's a plot device, and a badly hidden one at that.

The /only/ time I believed Minfilia wasn't a piece of cardboard was during ShB. We /finally/ see her as an actual character here even though she has collectively maybe twenty minutes of screentime. Yet in this small amount of time we're shown her resolve not to ruin another young girl's life for her own sake. Her resolve to keep the Light at bay and resolve to finally pass on, knowing the future is in good hands. It's like someone looked at ARR Minfilia and went 'I can fix this' and then bloody well did before sending off the character in a dignified manner. Minfilia literally got the perfect ending for her arc, one that made myself and many other people I know cry, and allowing her to come back would have absolutely cheapened that.

[CaesarCV]

My claims are more about why did it have to be the poor Minfilia, who suffered from everything in this game, bad writing, unjustified hate from community, they never gave her a chance to actually redeem herself in being a good character. She had a tragic story and personality that made some of us empathize with her, and then just got rid of that character in some out of reason way by making her a vessel. For me it wasnt fair that after all this the only way they can dig out some appeal to this character is ultimate sacrifice. That it should fall on her to hold up that microcosm of Ascians and Shards. She deserved much more than this, my opinion is they were out of ideas with how to smoothly return her to the story, hence why they came up with this whole "generations of Minfilias" thing and introduced Ryne as her legacy character.

I mean, I think part of the problem with this argument is that it's not only Minfilia that has to deal with the struggles related to the primary themes of the expansion. Each character and sub-scenario are all based around the same themes. Y'shtola sacrifices her life to nurture the seeds of the culture she's created. A broken artisan finds solace and purpose once he realizes he is pursuing his wife's legacy. Alisae's entire storyline is about death, rebirth, and having the strength to move on. Minfilia not having to deal with it would actually be much stranger. And again, they didn't just 'run out of ideas' and had to introduce Ryne as a legacy character. Ryne as a legacy character and the 'generations of Minfilia's is the idea. They wanted to represent the idea of 'legacy', so what better way to use an old character for it? They wanted to represent death and rebirth, so what better idea than having a character seemingly literally reborn? What better way to demonstrate new life and the need to nurture it than a soul finding new purpose and identity?

Characters, are, in the end, simply tools for telling a story. Minfilia's a tool, Thancred's a tool, Y'shtola's a tool. And Minfilia's purpose as the bringer and holder of faith led her to becoming a vessel. Then it led to this chain of events. She could have gone against these themes...but what would that have meant for the story?

But I want to stop at "its selfish" point and ask -- why not be selfish? Its the most "realistic" attitude you can expect, anything else will be overstretched like with Thancred. And there's no need to resort to crime fiction or objectivist literature as you pointed, I can name you a few examples of this being done right and they are from videogames.

This is the part of your argument that kind of confuses me the most. I mean, Thancred was selfish for most of the story. He put his own needs above that of Minfilia's desires and Ryne's needs. He put his own need for love and closure over the life of another human being. It's only truly at the final moment of his story, when he encounters Ran'Jit, that he finally makes his choice. Ran'jit is the embodiment of his selfish desires around Minfilia/Ryne. He too, desires love and closure, but he has no problem with robbing Minfilia/Ryne of her agency and identity. In this instance, he is the selfish person who will do anything to save Minfilia/Ryne. He would gladly jump over a mountain, kill any person, and marshal whatever power he has to do it. Thancred is set against this, and takes a different road.

Other Selfish Examples

I admit that I was a little snide there, and I apologize for that.

I could spend a lot of time deconstructing those two examples you mentioned (notably how Fang goes through a VERY SIMILAR ARC TO THANCRED WHERE SHE AGREES TO SACRIFICE HERSELF AND THE ONE SHE'S PROTECTING TO SAVE OTHERS!) , but it's kind of beyond the point. FFXIV isn't a story about selfish people following their desires. At least not on the hero side. It's more about people coming together to do the right thing. So like...a Minfilia storylne about Thancred selfishly following his own desires would be kind of...confusing? Like, I don't get it other than the fanboyish satisfaction of having Minfilia back.

Which might be enough to be fair ha ha.

[Dualblade]

snip

While I agree with you overall there is one thing I have to nitpick because it always, well, picks at my brain when people bring it up. Minfillia was only kidnapped twice, TWICE, in ARR. Again I can't speak for Legacy but given that half of her screen time there was as a child its probably would have worked better. But back to ARR.

The first time it happened was due to Livia's raid on the Waking Sands which resulted in multiple casualties both of characters we knew, could see doing things but other wise not interact with, and those who were important at the time to our character. The main Scions all survived but over half were kidnapped ALONG SIDE Minfillia, with Yda managing to escape and the only reason our character and Y'shtola were not in danger of that was due to being away on the Titan business. Of said captured Scions Minfillia also took the burnt of the torture inflicted on them in between their capture and rescue.

The second time was by an Ascian, which at the time we had only faced one and needed Hydaelyn's full out blessing to defeat, and this time she had just had to have us cut off so she could regain some of her power. Add onto the only reason we even defeated him was because the mortally wounded Moenbryda gave us the power-up we needed to do it and this situation could have been very different. By the end of HW things could have been different but Nabriales could have captured any of the other Scions and the outcome would have been the same at that point in the game.

...Like I said its a nitpick, people make it seems like she was kidnapped constantly and she just wasn't.

[Enla]

While I agree with you overall there is one thing I have to nitpick because it always, well, picks at my brain when people bring it up. Minfillia was only kidnapped twice, TWICE, in ARR. Again I can't speak for Legacy but given that half of her screen time there was as a child its probably would have worked better. But back to ARR.

The first time it happened was due to Livia's raid on the Waking Sands which resulted in multiple casualties both of characters we knew, could see doing things but other wise not interact with, and those who were important at the time to our character. The main Scions all survived but over half were kidnapped ALONG SIDE Minfillia, with Yda managing to escape and the only reason our character and Y'shtola were not in danger of that was due to being away on the Titan business. Of said captured Scions Minfillia also took the burnt of the torture inflicted on them in between their capture and rescue.

The second time was by an Ascian, which at the time we had only faced one and needed Hydaelyn's full out blessing to defeat, and this time she had just had to have us cut off so she could regain some of her power. Add onto the only reason we even defeated him was because the mortally wounded Moenbryda gave us the power-up we needed to do it and this situation could have been very different. By the end of HW things could have been different but Nabriales could have captured any of the other Scions and the outcome would have been the same at that point in the game.

...Like I said its a nitpick, people make it seems like she was kidnapped constantly and she just wasn't.

It's a fine nitpick! I definitely forget some times, like now lol, and thank you for the clarification! You're right it only happens twice, but in a way it kind of feels like more egregious in a way because of how much of a non-character if that makes sense? As if you can see the plot reason behind it and because the plot wheels are laid so bare for all to see if feels more annoying than it should be. At least I think that's why I often think she was kidnapped more than she actually was.

[Dualblade]

It's a fine nitpick! I definitely forget some times, like now lol, and thank you for the clarification! You're right it only happens twice, but in a way it kind of feels like more egregious in a way because of how much of a non-character if that makes sense? As if you can see the plot reason behind it and because the plot wheels are laid so bare for all to see if feels more annoying than it should be. At least I think that's why I often think she was kidnapped more than she actually was.

It's all fine, and yes I get it. Its the sort of thing that if you already don't like the character for whatever reason will just NOT help at all with turning it around, while at best being a neutral thing for those who do like the character. Plus memes can make things go out of control, like the ones about Jean Gray or Zero dieing all the time.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

I think a lot of OG-Minfillia's issues are the result of her being very much a classical Final Fantasy heroine, in the style of Rosa, Lenna, and arguably Terra. We're told they're really damn important, yet outside of mechanical battles (which Minfillia is never part of) they have limited impact on the plot as characters (as opposed to impact as living plot device). Their importance is often more because of either what they are or to whom they are supposedly dear (Cecil, Locke, Thancred), rather than who they are or the results of their own agency.

Also, thank you so much to the user who brought up that the ShB Minfillia plot is a microcosm of the cosmic-scale conflict. Saved me having to write my own, likely less concise, wall of text on the matter.

[Ekimmak]

I'll say that I did like Minfillia in ARR's 2.0 storyline.

It's just that as time went on, she began to wear at me. It's hard to believe that the same woman that threatened to commit suicide to get back at her captors is the same one that has the relevance of "holds the magic stick" in the penultimate trial.

And then the Pre-Heavensward cutscene happened, and I despised her for ignoring her friend's sacrifices and just sitting down on the ground, leaving you to carry on the whole burden AGAIN. Going back and watching the cutscene again, apparently that's when Hydalean told her "I need you to do this thing for me", but that was a "blink and you'll miss it moment", and the damage was already done. Come Shadowbringers, and it's even worse, because not only is she tarring Thancred's character with his loyalty (or more obsession) to her, but she's been possessing girls to send to their death against the Sin Eaters, like a reverse Ascian.

I never felt sad to see her go. I felt sad for the people that were sad to see her go. That is NOT the mark of a good character.

[Sammix87]

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

[Dualblade]

Just jumping in to add that my friend plays the Japanese version and according to him Minfillia and Thancred's relationship is shown as being an older brother and younger sister type scenario. I think the English translation often messes that up.

It's also worth noting in regards to Thancred, that if you talk to him between quests (including Shadowbringers) there is often mention of his womanizing behavior so I doubt he's romantically devoted to anyone. He mentions his many conquests in the Crystarium if you talk to him towards the MSQ's end...:S....

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that after the end of ARR and the loss of his use of aether he's also pretty much stopped going after anyone, in part because he's usually busy doing his spy work/raising and training Ryne while on the First. His "conquests" are brought up but usually to rib at him more than anything.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

While I'm not a fan of Yda (or her outfit) either (she isnt a Miqo'te, so on ') she is a puglist/monk - someone who moves around a lot during combat, so wearing a bit less clothes that could hinder your movement always made more sense to me than wearing a leather-outfit like Minfilias to a diplomatic meeting. (Also: "Others are doing it too" is never a good argument to defend something)

Pants work just fine for male pugilists. They would look absolutely ridiculous in her shorts. Unless you're willing to concede that by virtue of wearing pants they're at a disadvantage, I don't really understand what you're getting at.

As about how she can come back, well, theres no need for her to go back to her position, especially considering that now shes "trapped" in First and with Scions being so scattered. She could be what Ryne is doing now, help us fight Lightwardens. Yesh, she could actually fight! Like I mentioned before, now shes gained wisdom of countless Minfilias before and who knows what kind of powers she might have achieved. I dont want to speculate much about it but I strongly believe that if they wanted to put some effort in it it could be a strong comeback. They just wanted to give everyone an adorable character instead of hated Minfilia and they based their whole world on "let past be in the past" thing which putted an end to her return.