[SPOILERS]Considering that new Minfilia feature.

[QT_Melon]

I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

Yeah God forbid that a guy actually be blunt about his actual feelings. They must be romantic!

[RopeDrink]

If you are so determined in not accepting that his feelings were romantic.

I'm afraid that you're the one in denial here. There is far more proof to the contrary of any romantic notions between them, to the point where he has to tell people it's "not like that" -- such as the cutscene where Krile intentionally teases Thancred about his fondness for Minfilia (implying there is something going on between them), which simply annoys him and causes him to explain exactly why he's fond of her (ie. non-romantically), which puts Krile in her place and causes her to apologize. There have been several moments like this that dilute any and all romantic notions in favour of reaffirming players that he is very close to her for father-figure reasons (which have been mentioned in some shape or form in every. single. expansion).

It is also part of the reason he is torn up in Shadowbringers given he once again adopts that same role, except this time it is for someone who is Minfilia only in name/connection, but not really her. To make matters worse, this 'not-really-Minfilia' may or may not replace 'his' Minfilia, the one he's gutted over having been unable to protect multiple times. It's out of his control and it galls him, with a living reminder right there by his side. It is only when the matter is resolved that he can move past it.

And once again, not a single romantic thread was spun once even this expansion, which has given more background and lore on their relationship in a short space of time compared to some previous expos over their entirety. Even the maybe-maybe not 'I love you' (which is pure assumption) can refer to any kind of love. Given the context of their relationship over all these years, it is easy to attribute it to his role as her carer and protector. Some might choose to believe it is something more and that's fine, but be sure to revisit their story over the years to see why it is not likely. Also, be mindful when you tell people off for not adhering to what can only really be called 'head-canon' (which is what it is given there is so little evidence whatsoever of any romantic interest at all between the two). Even if you could find any, it pales in comparison to the contrary, often from his own dialogue and in-game cutscenes.

-----

As for the topic itself, Minfilia was an outright disaster of characterization which goes beyond FFXIV. She annoyed players in another title/spin-off of which the name escapes me. She was destined to fail when reduced to being a short-lived 'fetch-quest giver' with a penchant for getting into trouble and needing saving, without ever actually contributing a whole lot to compensate. This is no fault of Minfilia herself but the writers - and it is no surprise that such characters end up either unpopular or, at worst, simply hated. Ryne is a soft-reset of the character (without totally neglecting Minfilia's own background or her ties with Thancred). After all, she said herself that she (Minfilia) will be part of Ryne, but it was all essentially a way of starting her over from scratch.

You don't have to like Ryne, but if you're going to dislike her anyway, try not to do so under the assumption that she's merely a 'replacement Minfilia'. She's her own character and has seen more development in this one new story than Minfilia ever had since her inception in FFXIV to the present.

I know it sucks when a character you like is dealt a hand you're not satisfied with and there is nothing wrong with being a bit upset or miffed at it -- it shows a passion for the story/characters when this happens, which is good -- but be careful of how that anger/sadness impacts your overall enjoyment of everything else. The story and characterization in Shadowbringers has been an absolute gem thus far and it'd be a big shame to spoil it due to one plot thread you're not overly keen on. We've only just got started and I have no doubt Minfilia will be mentioned or still have an impact in some way down the road.

[RopeDrink]

Yeah God forbid that a guy actually be blunt about his actual feelings. They must be romantic!

To be fair that is largely the point. I can understand why so many people would leap to a conclusion about the two - I mean, here are two attractive characters of relatively similar age who claim they are fond of each other for reasons that are fed through dribs and drabs for years (ie. we're not force-fed a 'we're not like that' for some time in the story) - so surely there must be something more going on, right? Right? Well, no, as he himself has said during said scenes when questioned on the topic. Every time it is mentioned it has been done so with the exact same common threads - mostly his guilt and a need to watch over her. Along the way, any talk of romance is debunked either by himself or by context. Neither character ever implied at any point there was anything more than a deep bond of friendship between them.

Sadly, we live in a world where people still think it's a bit weird for a male and female to just be friends. Me and my own best friend have been at the brunt of this for two decades. Over those years, either family, acquaintances, or even other friends who know better will tease or believe there is something more going on. The relationship between these two fictional fantasy characters isn't much different, except their bond has a more traumatic/dramatic foundation to it.

[QT_Melon]

Not sure why the double post.

I'm saying tho, that it's pretty shaky ground to assume that every male that has a fondness towards another female has to be romantic. If you're gonna complain about bad writing, making that assumption based on gender is equally at fault.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Long rant

I can only write posts up to 3000 characters for some reason :/

I really didnt want this topic to be about "top 10 reasons why you dislike Minfilia". Its not about it and believe me I heard and know them all. But if you do want to start it, there you go.

Yes, running back and forth from Horizon was annoying- no doubt, but that's bad writing to draw out gaming time. It was just unfortunate Minfilia got the bulk of it, you know, like every other NPC that asked you to run around for them. But still, having played the MSQ through roughly 6 times now, this is very much exaggerated. In almost every case you are only summoned back to base at the end of each story arc, in order to report findings and discuss the next order of business. Not to mention that this still happens even today, long after Minfilia has gone. It seems the main complaint stems from Vesper Bay lacking an aetheryte and Minfilia gets the flak. Additionally, there are large stretches in ARR (where "pray return to the waking sands" was most common) in which you don't visit for nearly 5-10 levels, such as Titan and Coerthas. In fact you basically never go there at her behest from level 35 until nearly 46 because she is not there.

And why does giving you quests is a bad impression? Like, somebody has to do it, right? And besides, its not really true that them are all pointless outside of making you meld her dagger she never uses, but that's a gameplay tutorial and you all know it. Most waste of time quests are given out by other NPCs, and even missions that amount to little, like the Sylphs, still result in important information and make sense from the perspective of the story and the role of the Scions. Plus Minfilia is one of the few characters to actively praise you and give you credit for your deeds. Other Scions are fighters, its only right that they are introduced to you via something cool and action-oriented. Minfilia is a leader, negotiator and researcher, and yeah you just dont see her doing this much, which brings me to my next point.

Yeah, the "main" problem. First things first, you can all assume what the leaders duty is right? Then why do you have to see Minfilia doing all, how you said it yourself, boring stuff like negotiating, handling logistics and bureaucracy when you can fill screen time with action and fighting? Being a leader and actually managing all the money, contacts, workers, etc, is hard and unexciting work, and I know that's exactly what Minf does, but I know it because she is the leader, not because we see her doing that. And well yeah, maybe Alph did take negotiating role off Minfilia but lets not forget her other important roles, like telling us how to stop the primals. She is outright telling us what do we have to do. That requires research and going through contacts, and she has her homework done in time to tell us what she found time and time again. The problem?

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Long rant

Maybe she is too efficient, because we don't see that, just she telling us what we have to do. And even that is not exactly true, we have seen several times she talking with her contacts or telling us she is going to move through them to find what we need. For some reason she just doesnt get enough credit for her role. We know she is in contact with all the leaders, research all she can about the threats that we fight, and we can win because we know where to strike and how thanks to her, most of the time. We dont have to see her actually doing it because then cutscenes would take an hour.

And the fact that, unlike Alph, we don't see her talking with the leaders doesn't mean that she doesn't, because we know she does. To the point of protecting the Scions from the influence of the Syndicate, something Alph wasn't able to do for the Crystal Braves.

And what about the scene with her unwilling to bend to Livia's or Nabriales' abuse of her? That was strong enough to me. She's strong in her strength of will, and I honestly don't see why people tend to forget these things as well.

On a topic with Tataru, I dont know, I felt like her role and her personality were over exaggerated. She gets slack for being devious and because shes useful for getting the scions into places. Which is what Minfilia used to do but without being a Lalafell. Minfilia actually comes out to meet you on a few occasions. Like during the snowcloak stuff she meets with the ishgardians (and actually wears a big coat because her normal outfit is stupid in the snow, unlike Alphinaud, the dingus.) Tataru has "gone out and worked for it like twice, and both times she failed miserably. She generally spends her time standing in a room supposedly gathering leads and funds, but you're also only told this most of the time. Sge sometimes gets to "show" but is largely a bigger "tell" character than Minfilia was. The early section of Stormblood has us seeking passage to Kugane by sea and so we go to Limsa Lominsa to avoid the obvious solution and ask the criminally underutilized Admiral Merlwyb. Instead, Tataru blackmails an on-the-spot made-up Isgardian moonlighting as a sailor to do it. If anyone had good Intel on passage to the Far East, it was Merlwyb or even one of her subordinates. Other than that, Tataru just hangs out in dive bars to relay us very little or lives it up in Kugane where she claims,to do the bookeeping.

Bookeeping on the twelve-knows-what, I always have to fund myself. With that gear that buy multiple houses, as Tataru goes out of her way to fourth wall. I didn't have a house at the time and knew that stung others.

She mean. Minfilia was always kind.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Long rant

Also, on the point of questgiving. Therein lies the conundrum of the Scions, not just Minfillia. Due to the nature of the game (an MMORPG), and the western playerbase being action-heavy, wanting crazy accolades to be given to them and paradoxically not have to work for them.

Imagine if FFXIV was a single player Final Fantasy game. There would be no Warrior of Light. One would play as The Scions. Think about it. Alphinaud your arcanist/summoner, Alisae your arcanist/red mage, Urianger a summoner/black mage, Yda your Monk, Papalymo a black mage, Thancred a thief/ninja, Moenbryda scholar/warrior, Y'shtola a white mage and Minfillia the FFXIV equivalent of a FF5 freelancer. Their actions and story are affected because the Warrior of Light exists. With the WoL doing seemingly everything, the Scions appear to not do anything in return.

Which leads to my next point: The western player base is ludicrously action oriented with barely any account for passivity or balance between the two. It's all "Do, do, do, fight, fight, fight. If I'm not seeing you doing anything at this very second, you are useless." Coupled with "I've fought Gods, I killed big mean monsters, why do I have to do something less than that?" This becomes a nightmare for any kind of story for a game that features an adventurer as a playable character.

People forget that any task, no matter how menial, an adventurer will do with no problems. In fact they live for this and strangely enough, this is also one of those rare times where the adventurer may say what they think about their life as an adventurer. If people have played and seen the Dark Knight questline from level 30 to 50, the player can see the thoughts of the Warrior of Light.

The paradox comes in when the player wants other people or NPCs to do their work for them! That is the very antithesis of the adventurer. The tasks that the WoL does go from menial to legendary, and then settles somewhere in between. Don't be surprised when NPCs have you do any from of task. The WoL is just that dependable. Now I wonder if it is by the nature of the game or by design that things are as they are.

And what a cruel joke this is that in order to become "useful" for the majority of players and get development, she needed to become a tool and die. What a cheap, lazy-ass writing.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

If you read my post you'd know EXACTLY WHY THAT's not the case. That whole scenario is meant to demonstrate the themes of the game.

I want to say that I dont have much to add to this point of yours because, like I said earlier, I stopped doing my MSQ after that disaster of a quest and in a crafting/chill mode these days. So I cant really add or counter much because Im not too deep into storyline yet. But from what I understood, reading various threads here on this forum, Ascians want to have their home back by causing various calamities, correct me if Im wrong. And when I look at it from this perspective, I think Im on Ascians side here. I mean, I can completely understand the reason why they fighting, its just that we are on a different side of a barricade and we should be fighting them to protect our world cuz they are villains etc. But on a bigger scale I feel like I would take the Ascian side. I would give up on current world because its not mine. Its not the world I love, not the world I grew up in, there nobody to this world I am attached to. And if its in my pwoer to bring my old world back, I will do anything to get it back. Hence why I was so pissed at Thancred reaction after Minfilia given up on her life. Like, I do understand that her sacrifice helps us to reveal the core if this expansion: nothing lasts forever as you said. But giving what I said earlier, it was beyond me to understand why did he decide to choose "some stupid girl" over one he have feelings for? Why fight for god knows what and support this girl, the only reason why he even rescued her being his wish for his Minfilia to awake? And its not like it would be super cruel, countless Minfilias died before, countless maybe will. But now all the heroes are here, wouldnt it be the perfect time to finally stop this cycle? And they did stop it, just the other way around.

I think Im just complete opposite of what this plot hand over to me. Im way against ultimate sacrifices and "leaving past in the past and live onward". I dont want to fight for something Ive never been a part of if I still can bring back the world i know and love. I dont want ones I love sacrifice their lifes in order to bring peace and prosperity to the future. There will be no future for me without them.

[Antoine_Lenheim]

Its a special pet peeve of mine, I'll admit that, but here it goes

There's a handful of characters who fall into this, too. Y'da is wearing half a pair of booty shorts for crying out loud. And the only reason for wearing short shorts and sabatons was for them pale, milky thighs. But I think thats just the personal preference, like I said fanservice is a common thing in SE, it just scales to game to game. Yes, maybe for a negotiator wearing such outfit is unacceptable but I liked to believe that shes wearing her "tribe" clothes. Like we didnt know much about Highlanders and Ala Mhigans back at ARR so I had a theory about her representating her country.

So if you could sacrifice someone you have no connection with to get back someone you do have one with, would you?

Yep, like I mentioned above, I gladly will. Especially someone who I dont have any connections with and who had a habit of dying countless times before. Like, whats the big deal?

As for the topic itself, Minfilia was an outright disaster of characterization which goes beyond FFXIV.

I wish she was better written. But still she gets much more flak that what her writing deserves.

[Alleo]

I doubt that the killed Minfilia off because of people hating her. I just think that this was the fitting ending for her character and it was a great way to develop Thancred. His desire to see old Minfilia again (which we dont know if he loved her like a lover or as family) and his love for the new child that he protected for three years. In the end Thancred knew what Minfilia wished and thus he started to accept that she will die. Heck without her returning to give people hope she would have been dead anyway.

I am quite happy that we have Ryne now. In the short time with her, she has grown on me way more than Minfilia ever could.