ShB bard has turned me into a ball of rage and depression

[Suniva]

BRD may have lost utility, but from what I've noticed it does very solid damage.

A lot, (not all), but A LOT of people that played bard did so because of the util kit they had. I've been brd since 2.0, I NEVER have EVER wanted or even expected my class to do comparable dps to a dragoon or mnk, now sam, ninja, etc. People that decided to play brd and then complain that they weren't doing as good as dmg as the melee classes clearly didn't/don't understand what brd was supposed to be, imho.

And arguments such as yours that are implying that we should be okay with the trade off of our util for increased dmg is going to make me assume you've never gotten a brd to 70.
(I checked, you haven't.)

[Gallus]

A lot, (not all), but A LOT of people that played bard did so because of the util kit they had. I've been brd since 2.0, I NEVER have EVER wanted or even expected my class to do comparable dps to a dragoon or mnk, now sam, ninja, etc. People that decided to play brd and then complain that they weren't doing as good as dmg as the melee classes clearly didn't/don't understand what brd was supposed to be, imho.

And arguments such as yours that are implying that we should be okay with the trade off of our util for increased dmg is going to make me assume you've never gotten a brd to 70.
(I checked, you haven't.)

So you don't care about how your job plays? You don't care about your rotation? You'd swallow an inedible rotation as long as they gave you a support kit? Also, I didn't even imply anything, all I said is that the BRDs I've come across seemed to be doing very good DPS. I didn't say you had to be content with it or whatever, just thought I'd share what I've seen so far. I'm not sure why you are getting this defensive over my first post which was totally harmless.

[ForteNightshade]

So you don't care about how your job plays? You don't care about your rotation? You'd swallow an inedible rotation as long as they gave you a support kit? Also, I didn't even imply anything, all I said is that the BRDs I've come across seemed to be doing very good DPS. I didn't say you had to be content with it or whatever, just thought I'd share what I've seen so far. I'm not sure why you are getting this defensive over my first post which was totally harmless.

You are both strawmanniing and missing the fundamental point of people's ire towards BRD changes. Its core identity was never about doing high damage despite it creeping up the damage meters. What attracted a large number of players to the job was its focus on utility and support alongside its damage. This was completely abandoned now. A comparable example is if they were to abruptly nerf BLM because they slapped a bunch of utility. I sincerely doubt many BLM mains would find much solace in being told "well, you have good utility now!" That wasn't what interested them in the job to begin with.

But Bard has never been about damage. It was always a utility/support based class in the Red part of the job trio.

I agree with Suniva that quite a few Bard players decided to play the class because it was easy to get into and then proceed to complain that the job was too hard (or you know, make the effort to learn it) or that they don't do enough damage (are people really expecting all classes from a similar role to fulfill the exact amount of damage despite the different gameplay styles?). From what I've read both on forums and Discord, it seems those who are happy with the changes are usually those that never played Bard to its full potential.

Unfortunately, this is likely the case with a lot of jobs. People who didn't play them or played them poorly and were too lazy to learn whined. The devs have a tendency listen to those players, prompting the changes we've seen. Plenty are good. Others? Far less so.

[Gallus]

You are both strawmanniing and missing the fundamental point of people's ire towards BRD changes. Its core identity was never about doing high damage despite it creeping up the damage meters. What attracted a large number of players to the job was its focus on utility and support alongside its damage. This was completely abandoned now. A comparable example is if they were to abruptly nerf BLM because they slapped a bunch of utility. I sincerely doubt many BLM mains would find much solace in being told "well, you have good utility now!" That wasn't what interested them in the job to begin with.

Is that so? I thought one of BRD's flavours too was how mobile and fluid it was. I recall a lot of people complaining how their job was utterly destroyed in Heavensward when the autos were removed and you were given hardcasted GCDs with Minuette. Oh but you were still supports right? So where was the problem again?

[Suniva]

And perhaps, just perhaps, that was one of the reasons why people liked BRD in 4.0 and not only because it was a support role?

But we are not ONLY a support role. We are a support/dps/hybrid role. Due to the nature of the class, we were not going to excel in damage like melee, nor SHOULD we have been excelling in dmg against a machinist.


Let's be clear here, YOU are the one that came to this forum and have already admitted that your opinion is based on what you've SEEN rather than EXPERIENCED. When those players that have lived and breathed their bard's for years came out and politely expressed their opinions as to why they feel the way they feel, you cry foul. Now we don't care about how our job plays...? I mean, we wouldn't be posting here discussing why we feel the way we feel if we didn't care.

Is that so? I thought one of BRD's flavours too was how mobile and fluid it was. I recall a lot of people complaining how their job was utterly destroyed in Heavensward when the autos were removed and you were given hardcasted GCDs with Minuette. Oh but you were still supports right? So where was the problem again?

We, ahem, still had our utility tool kit in Heavensward, despite being bow mages...So while yes being a bow mage sucked, we were still able to provide support to our groups, which a lot of feel is the heart and soul the class.

I don't think it's fair that you speak for everyone here. BRDs could've mained BRD for different reasons, be it the mobility, the job appeal, the rotation, etc. Not everyone necessarily mained BRD because it had support capabilities. The only difference between jobs isn't if they have support skills or not, even if you take away every support aspect of BRD, the rotation and flavour will still be completely different from the one of a BLM, so I couldn't disagree more with you.

I'm just going to say it, and sorry if it's a bit strong; But if you (generalized, not personal) were playing a class that then became your main and were not utilizing the ENTIRETY of the classes available tool kit, then you were not playing that class to its fullest potential, plain and simple.

[Sparkthor]

I'm curious, why you yourself are getting so worked up the matter, especially considering it is a class you don't even main.

I cannot tell for Gallus, but i looked at the topic because to me, the Bard, prior to be a support class, is a DoT and proc class and what's why my friends are playing it (the other was being SUM). While i can get some complain about the utility loss, i'm a bit baffled when people claim all bard identity has been riped away. The core concept of DoT and proc class is still intact, and i could say it has been reinforced.

[HyoMinPark]

Is that so? I thought one of BRD's flavours too was how mobile and fluid it was. I recall a lot of people complaining how their job was utterly destroyed in Heavensward when the autos were removed and you were given hardcasted GCDs with Minuette. Oh but you were still supports right? So where was the problem again?

You are strawmanning again. We are not discussing mobility or fluidity or rotations here, but the removal of BRD’s support identity, which has been its identity for the entirety of FFXIV’s life cycle dating back to 1.0 (where, if I recall, it was pure support and actually didn’t deal much damage at all). Did you read the topic of the thread? Do you understand the nature of the complaints career BRDs are voicing?

And perhaps, just perhaps, that was one of the reasons why people liked BRD in 4.0 and not only because it was a support role?

You are still failing to see the complaints here and choosing to cherry pick and strawman about damage dealing capability, mobility, rotations, and fluidity when that is not the main issue presented in this thread or in most complaints about 5.0 BRD (I invite you to go read some of them so you can hopefully understand what we are talking about here).

I cannot tell for Gallus, but i looked at the topic because to me, the Bard, prior to be a support class, is a DoT and proc class and what's why my friends are playing it (the other was being SUM). While i can get some complain about the utility loss, i'm a bit baffled when people claim all bard identity has been riped away. The core concept of DoT and proc class is still intact, and i could say it has been reinforced.

BRDs past iterations still had DoTs to manage/optimize, but the only procs they really managed up to Stormblood were Bloodletter/Rain of Death procs—most of their other skills were basically use on CD (e.g., Empyreal Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Sidewinder) and the songs functioned vastly different from how they do now. Pitch Perfect and Repertoire were not a thing prior to 4.0. Support was overwhelmingly the largest and most core part of their job, and it predates any of the DoT optimization and proc management they deal with now. I don’t find it fair to really call DoT management a niche to the job in the 2.0 and 3.0 incarnations because most jobs had DoTs that they were responsible for managing back then—they just didn’t get procs from them in the way BRD did.


In 2.0, BRD was the only job that could provide resource management to its party members in the form of MP and TP refresh until the release of NIN in 2.4 with Goad (which was only single-target and on an 180s CD—Army’s was party-wide and limited only by your MP pool). It also provided a +10% damage buff to magic users. From what I can recall of 2.x jobs, the only other job that provided a damage buff like this was NIN with Trick Attack. I don’t recall reading about any raid buff like Foe’s or TA from the other jobs.

In 3.0, MCH was added and it shared the support niche with BRD in the form of resource management and a party buff—to combat BRD’s magic damage buff, Hypercharge was +10% physical damage. But BRD’s core function of supporting and buffing its party was still there. More so than proc management, since River of Blood was still the only proc you managed.

In 4.0, BRD saw the influx of more procs in the form of Pitch Perfect and Refulgent Arrow, but the support aspect was still there and expanded upon immensely. Refresh and Tactician replaced Mage’s Ballad and Army’s Paeon for MP/TP refresh. Foe’s was +3% flat damage for all damage types (and could be manipulated with smart Refresh usage for more casts during an encounter). Utilizing your songs gave your party a +2% passive crit buff, whose contribution scaled even higher as the amount of crit increased on gear. Battle Voice provided +15% Direct Hit rate every 180s, and Troubadour provided 30s +10% magical or physical mitigation, or +15% HP, depending on which song you paired it with (really good for phases with extended AOE damage like O12S or UwU). Nature’s Minne was a +20% buff to healing spells on a target for 15s on a 45s cooldown (amazing for spread Adlos), and Palisade was the physical equivalent of Apocatastasis every 150s (great for assisting with tankbusters in raids or for dungeon pulls with lots of mobs that deal physical damage—literally a free tank cooldown). BRD was still heavily support oriented in Stormblood despite the DoTs and procs it had to manage. Any BRD who didn’t see that was more than like a BRD that never utilized their support tools—which honestly made them less valuable to their party since BRD’s personal damage was low (even with its power creep, it was no selfish DPS).

Strawman here, strawman there, strawman everywhere!

Just calling them as I see them. You’re bring up irrelevant points to the discussion and failing to actually discuss the main topic of concern.

No but seriously.

3.0 - BRD loses its mobility: Complete and total outrage. Dozens of threads. Hundreds if not thousands of people complaining. The amount of complaints was so brutal SE gave BRD full mobility in 4.0 and 5.0.

5.0 - BRD loses part of its support skills: a couple threads with the same 5 people complaining.

Wanna talk again about what the majority think BRD's core is?

If you think it’s just 5 people complaining, that just proves you aren’t actually reading the complaints. It’s far more than five people. And anyone who ever thought BRD’s core was anything other than support clearly never paid attention to the job. It certainly wasn’t damage—BRD has never been a selfish damage dealer, nor was it ever brought to parties because of its Big D DPS. Sorry to say that that was never the niche BRD was designed to fill.

Try to make your arguments without logical fallacies next time. They’ll probably make more sense.

[Gallus]

Strawman here, strawman there, strawman everywhere!

No but seriously.

3.0 - BRD loses its mobility: Complete and total outrage. Dozens of threads. Hundreds if not thousands of people complaining. The amount of complaints was so brutal SE gave BRD full mobility in 4.0 and 5.0.

5.0 - BRD loses part of its support skills: a couple threads with the same 5 people complaining.

Wanna talk again about what the majority think BRD's core is?

[Suniva]

-snip-

It's kinda silly that they expanded on our utility so much during Stormblood only to immediately take it all away at the very next expansion. :'(

[lulunami]

Bard went back to being Ranger again without Foe Requiem. (Bring back 2.0 Foe Requiem with Magic debuff.) As a Bard that liked weaving in support tools while optimizing damage, it is very disappointing to me in that aspect.

Doing DPS rotation on BRD is decent now in dungeons with AoE attacks. Just only having Battle Voice as a party buff tool feels lackluster and basic.