Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Fluffernuff]

snip

You should perhaps calm down and not jump to conclusions. My "advice" is.... to not die. this applies exponentially more to healers than anyone else.

Dont advise players to die over stubborn pride.

Now onto what I actually said;
If you use lucid often for MP management as has been advocated for constantly about this topic, your aggro isnt going to be high enough to rip aggro in the first place.

This is, of course, assuming all things are fair and equal. If you need to resort to and bring up a "sword oath" only paladin as a defense as if it is the norm, thats a reach that inspector gadget would be envious of.
Should we bring up ice mages again, too? lolDRG?

If you need to resort to that, then we can, as is fair, apply that you are medica 2 spamming on full hp, out of combat, stacking regen, and blowing cure 3s on your tank. thatll give you lotsa aggro real quick. and burn your MP too. 2 for 1.

[Kaylessa]

I have tanked trash packs as a healer because of Tanks like this, so I really feel you lol.

Lucid Dreaming is not an excuse to play an entire dungeon in Sword Oath without ever holding aggro.

I don't mind doing it, I can healer tank trash mobs a little if worst comes to worst, and it makes the gameplay a little fun ... just don't ask me to pop lucid for you and we'll be fine

[KaleShibata]

It's additionally very hard to tell what a good group is when you're in a pug. That's the reason this discussion is happening. My point is that we shouldn't be pointing fingers at each other, but more at the wonky game design -- which is being fixed.

This. this statement I can agree on whole heartedly.

I'll admit my contribution should have been better worded but because (English is hard...don't ask me how I'm not good at explaining anything half the time) I'd rather have contributed something a bit more useful but seeing as how the discussion after that point basicly did that except better in at least 3 cases I just kinda left it alone after that.

So I'ma go ahead and apologize here anyway.

[KaleShibata]

Had a interesting DF experience running roulette get queued for a low level dungeon. (hakkute manor) to be exact. Dungeon starts healer stands around ago for about 5 min and when they do catch up to the party I ask them to cast protect.

Healer (not even a white mage yet still a conjurer) decides to curse me out and say "you only need protect if you're a mage dps. Tanks don't need it because we have high hp" .

Then proceeds to repeatedly use the n word and says "I'm reporting you for refusing to tank without being healed"

What?

...this whole thing confuses me greatly and I do not like it...I'm not even...

[Kaylessa]

Now onto what I actually said;
If you use lucid often for MP management as has been advocated for constantly about this topic, your aggro isnt going to be high enough to rip aggro in the first place.

A couple of people have tried to tell me in this topic that lucid is used for something different. Including a certain someone who grouped lucid with diversion in "popping it before the battle started" then tried to point out that because refresh was an "additonal effect" it's secondary in importance. That is part of the conversation you jumped into, btw.

[HyoMinPark]

In any fight that has aggro resets or intermissions where the boss is untargetable but healing is still required, it may be mandatory to use Lucid for aggro as a WHM - sometimes an AST (I've seen ASTs rip before in UwU during Garuda because of all the healing they're doing for cleanses).

For example: in A12S, there is a lot of healing going on during the intermission with the adds (Almost Holys; healing the tanks from the Time and Might; AOE after the Ultimate is still needed even with tank LB3). Alexander isn't targetable during this time, so it's not uncommon to see healer aggro skyrocket because the tanks can't actively generate aggro on the boss, but healers are still generating it on Alexander's aggro table.

Neo-Exdeath has aggro resets during his fight. While there was a strat to Cover a WHM for the Aero III tankbuster, if you weren't running with a PLD this wasn't possible. WHM aggro was especially bad in Neo and Godka because of aggro resets in the former and the stupid Heartless Archangel overheal to full HP mechanics in the second. Omega M and F also have aggro resets after they split and both appear on the arena (in normal and Savage).

Normal mode A12 also saw aggro issues due to its intermission. It wasn't as healing heavy as Savage but DF healers tended to go a little nuts - as usual. DF healers either don't know how to heal (or deal damage) or they overheal way too much because Medica II is apparently the go-to heal for the smallest bit of damage on someone. I saw many of them get smacked down by him when he came back because they wouldn't cut their hate with Shroud of Saints or Luminiferous Aether. And that's not the fault of the tank either. That's just them being a bad teammate.

Point is, if you have to cut enmity so that you don't die, just do it. Don't be prideful or spiteful because a tank is optimizing outside of tank stance (moot point now, but I still firmly stand behind this point). And this is for any job: healer, caster, melee, or physical ranged. BRD had some crazy aggro generation this last tier, and I would have given anything for Diversion. I managed with timing my Tactician usage (and Refresh at ~22 seconds dumps your opening burst as well as restoring MP for more Foe's); but sometimes it wasn't enough even with good tanks Provoke/Shirking each other. After several dumps I was usually fine, but I rode their butt until after at least 2 or 3 of them.

[Shirosama]

...this whole thing confuses me greatly and I do not like it...I'm not even...

Lol imagine how I felt being cursed out and called n word for asking for protect

[Fluffernuff]

A couple of people have tried to tell me in this topic that lucid is used for something different. Including a certain someone who grouped lucid with diversion in "popping it before the battle started" then tried to point out that because refresh was an "additonal effect" it's secondary in importance. That is part of the conversation you jumped into, btw.

well if this "certain someone" is me, I did not do that. That said, Lucid has 0 effectiveness outside of combat. Diversion doesnt cut aggro, but reduces the amount you generate. Because of that, it should actually be used pre-pull for setting up your opener. So... half and half on that one.

What I have said though is that is has both effects and should be used as such. it serves a dual purpose. For healers, it is indeed much more heavily weighed toward MP management because outside of WHM, their tools are limited in that regard. So for the most part, youre right. Lucid shouldnt be exclusively held for aggro. I agree on that much. But I also disagree that it should be held exclusively for mp management as well. And i think thats where this whole thing is getting blurry.

And thats why my main thing is staunchly refusing to use it for its aggro purpose when you have aggro, no need for mp management at the moment, and it's up and prime to be used is completely on you. You can blame the tank or DPS or whatever that youre number 1 on aggro or whatever, but its on you if you die in that scenario. it could have been fixed or mitigated and you refused. Blaming the tank after that starts getting into hypocrisy at best and a spoiled tantrum at worst. neither is a good look.

As the healer, you're (arguably) the most important member to keep alive. I advocate you should use the proper tools to survive. whether or not you should have had to or not is rather irrelevant at that point. You can pick the PLD back up. or the DRG. They cant pick you back up.

The main think that irks me is the stubborn pride. Lucid and the tank changes might be a change for the better, but that mentality'll stick around and fester.

[Kaylessa]

In any fight that has aggro resets or intermissions where the boss is untargetable but healing is still required, it may be mandatory to use Lucid for aggro as a WHM - sometimes an AST (I've seen ASTs rip before in UwU during Garuda because of all the healing they're doing for cleanses).

For example: in A12S, there is a lot of healing going on during the intermission with the adds (Almost Holys; healing the tanks from the Time and Might; AOE after the Ultimate is still needed even with tank LB3). Alexander isn't targetable during this time, so it's not uncommon to see healer aggro skyrocket because the tanks can't actively generate aggro on the boss, but healers are still generating it on Alexander's aggro table.

Neo-Exdeath has aggro resets during his fight. While there was a strat to Cover a WHM for the Aero III tankbuster, if you weren't running with a PLD this wasn't possible. WHM aggro was especially bad in Neo and Godka because of aggro resets in the former and the stupid Heartless Archangel overheal to full HP mechanics in the second. Omega M and F also have aggro resets after they split and both appear on the arena (in normal and Savage).

Normal mode A12 also saw aggro issues due to its intermission. It wasn't as healing heavy as Savage but DF healers tended to go a little nuts - as usual. DF healers either don't know how to heal (or deal damage) or they overheal way too much because Medica II is apparently the go-to heal for the smallest bit of damage on someone. I saw many of them get smacked down by him when he came back because they wouldn't cut their hate with Shroud of Saints or Luminiferous Aether. And that's not the fault of the tank either. That's just them being a bad teammate.

Point is, if you have to cut enmity so that you don't die, just do it. Don't be prideful or spiteful because a tank is optimizing outside of tank stance (moot point now, but I still firmly stand behind this point). And this is for any job: healer, caster, melee, or physical ranged. BRD had some crazy aggro generation this last tier, and I would have given anything for Diversion. I managed with timing my Tactician usage (and Refresh at ~22 seconds dumps your opening burst as well as restoring MP for more Foe's); but sometimes it wasn't enough even with good tanks Provoke/Shirking each other. After several dumps I was usually fine, but I rode their butt until after at least 2 or 3 of them.

There are a few examples, most of them in content most healers will never do, that may require healers to use lucid outside of general mp management. They're rare enough to be considered the exception and not the norm. They can learn the mechanics adjust for that one fight out of 500 they'll have to do that is otherwise

[Kaylessa]

well if this "certain someone" is me,

It wasn't. It was someone who was trying to lecture me on my role as a healer "lucid's under role skills, the primary effect is threat management, do your role" when you jumped into the conversation.