About the races we have.

[Gwenorai]

This. You can already make some pretty effeminate men, you could also go the other way and make an androgynous looking woman. I always thought this was the friendliest mainstream mmo to people wanting to express some gnc avatar, though the glamor game could use some work. And it's surprising because in Japan "dondake" is a punchline. They don't feel the same way westerners do about this sort of thing. So this mmo is actually kind of progressive.

But I also still believe no male viera is just matsuno mulling it over. Bunny ears don't necessarily make a man effeminate, as shown by some p spectacular art.

Matsuno has actually shown a lot of interest in male Viera. If they were what he wanted - going by his views and desires for male Viera that he has stated on twitter - a male Viera's body would certainly not be feminine in a sense. He imagines the male to have zero body fat and extremely lean with defined muscle development. In short Male Viera have a body type that would be similar to Basche fon Rosenburg from FF12. Basically a strong, muscular-though-emaciated build,

[SturmChurro]

This. You can already make some pretty effeminate men, you could also go the other way and make an androgynous looking woman. I always thought this was the friendliest mainstream mmo to people wanting to express some gnc avatar, though the glamor game could use some work. And it's surprising because in Japan "dondake" is a punchline. They don't feel the same way westerners do about this sort of thing. So this mmo is actually kind of progressive.

Yeah, I'm over here thinking, we need new effeminate men? This game is already full of them! What do you mean?!

[starxlove]

He don't look feminine or androginous, but a cross-dresser. An ugly cross-dresser.

If you're breaking gender roles then cross-dressing shouldn't really be an issue /shrug

[Berret_Snow]

Yeah, I'm over here thinking, we need new effeminate men? This game is already full of them! What do you mean?!

Yeah! The only races that can't make effeminate men are just Roegadyn and now Hrothgar. Everyone else can!

[TattersailNightwish]

I have a friend where the character is technically female but did such a good job on it, plays as a feminine male.. I sometime get my pronouns reversed.

[SomeRandomHuman]

Faces for more androgynous and feminine males are already in-game yes. A more androgynous and/or feminine body shape is not. All the males(sans lalafell) are very masculine. Even a male Midlander with 0 muscle tone slider just looks like generic average guy.

That's the variety I want. We could use a small/petite build male. Just make one or two faces more masculine or so.

Not every male has to be big and macho. I don't understand why people are against more options just because its not their cup of tea. I personally don't care about Hrothgar since I won't be playing it, but I do like that we have a more beastly race now.

We just need a scrawny/frail male and a burly and buff female and then we have some good coverage across the board.

[Senn]

Faces for more androgynous and feminine males are already in-game yes. A more androgynous and/or feminine body shape is not. All the males(sans lalafell) are very masculine. Even a male Midlander with 0 muscle tone slider just looks like generic average guy.

I agree with this 100%. In my opinion, we do not have androgynous body types aside from lalafell. Every other male character, at least to me, has a masculine body type.

This is all really subjective and it's pointless going back and forth with people since no one is going to change their mind. The people who feel like we don't have enough androgynous body types are not going to change their minds, and the people who think we don't have enough masculine body types won't change their minds. Just let people request what they want to request.

edit: hit post limit or I guess my posts are still recharging

Tldr; a man that is soft in body, has minimal muscle development etc is not feminine or androgynous. Hardly anyone who looks at a body that is seen like this hardly thinks 'you have a body of a woman.'

I want something slender with smaller biceps, smaller torso, etc... idk about the semantics calling it androgynous or not, it's just easier to call it that. I guess more of a kpop star body type or like omega m? I really don't know what else to call it.

Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.

eeeh sure I don't care what people call it, I would just like a character with the traits you described. Slender.

And this is why folks start going 'no thanks' and 'keep your gender politics out of this.' Because it's a big part to play in gender politics these days.

This wasn't an attempt to gril you or anything. Just thought it wise to speak up before someone starts screaming about 'stop with your agenda Senn, rabble rabble rabbble'

Don't know why everything is about gender politics these days.

[Gwenorai]

I agree with this 100%. In my opinion, we do not have androgynous body types aside from lalafell. Every other male character, at least to me, has a masculine body type.

This is all really subjective and it's pointless going back and forth with people since no one is going to change their mind. The people who feel like we don't have enough androgynous body types are not going to change their minds, and the people who think we don't have enough masculine body types won't change their minds. Just let people request what they want to request.

I guess the argument of this is that the reverse of a masculine body type is a feminine one. An androgynous male has feminine traits in regards to their body - barring sexual organs and chest. It's very niche and very rare. You don't look at a thin man's body and think 'this is a woman'.

So when people say they want an androgynous body type its actually pretty complicated. Because andro isn't just 'body type' it's a multitude of things.

I'm going to be very clear because the more this is said the more I sigh... a pubescent body is where neither masculine traits nor feminine traits are showing themselves. This isn't to mean you want to play as a child. But this is why people flinch back when people say this. The most common type of body that is andro is that of a child/someone who hasn't gone through puberty or has developed a strong identity- or men who have minimal testosterone/gone through medical treatment to remove their sexual glands. The other side of this is when a man has feminine like traits and looks like a female but is actually masculine in personality etc and demeanour. This changes in regards to personality, sexuality etc.

Or the other case where a person has a situation where they have both sexual organs - usually the show feminine traits in regards to body. But this isn't considered Andro.

Not even Korean popstar men have a feminine body. If I saw one naked even with their private parts, face and etc hidden I could tell it was a male rather than a female.

Tldr; a man that is soft in body, has minimal muscle development etc is not feminine or androgynous. Hardly anyone who looks at a body that is seen like this hardly thinks 'you have a body of a woman.' or 'I could confuse your body for a woman.'

A pubescent and adolescent boy/young man or woman who hasn't developed - curves/and chest- does have an andro body considered in the medical community. This is the case with Viera children and it's the same with our own offspring.

Muscles and height do not = masculinity.
A beautiful man is not truly androgynous. Women who actually have some masculine traits such as a sharp jawline or a strong nose are extremely beautiful in a lot of scenarios. There's a reason why men cross-dressing can actually make overly beautiful women.

The closest body that is actually feminine or andro hilariously enough is Aura Males due to their curves.

Anyway, if you research androgynous men - they look closer to women. It's hardly a case where you can't tell, though it happens extremely rarely where someone is very much truthfully considered 'androgynous', and this is usually heightened by fashion, sexuality, gender and personality.

A bunch of feral men in the jungle do not spark the idea of androgynous. But it does spark the idea that with some love and care - that they can pass off as women with the correct amount of makeup/fashion etc. This is if they're similar to their female counterparts.

I want something slender with smaller biceps, smaller torso, etc... idk about the semantics calling it androgynous or not, it's just easier to call it that. I guess more of a kpop star body type or like omega m? I really don't know what else to call it.

Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men. To a lot of them, it's fashion. Popular fashion. I actually know Korean's who get really irritated when this is brought up and when people talk about Kpop stars as being andro etc they just shake their heads. Especially the assumption that most attractive men who follow this fashion are andro or something.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.


Androgynous right now is starting to become a fashion statement to some people. In truth, it's extremely complex and is not something that is strictly regarding appearance.If you go to the wiki regarding it this is what they have to say; 'Androgyny may be expressed with regard to biological sex, gender identity, gender expression, or sexual identity. The different meanings of androgyny point to the complex interrelationship between aspects of sex, gender, and sexuality.' and 'As a form of gender expression, androgyny can be achieved through personal grooming or fashion. Androgynous gender expression has waxed and waned in popularity in different cultures and throughout history.'

And this is why folks start going 'no thanks' and 'keep your gender politics out of this.' Because it's a big part to play in gender politics these days.

This wasn't an attempt to gril you or anything. Just thought it wise to speak up before someone starts screaming about 'stop with your agenda Senn, rabble rabble rabbble'

[GenBroadaxe]

Aye, Omega M and Kpop stars are not what I consider Andro. Kpopstars are usually following a certain trait of masculinity that is popular in Korea. I'm pretty sure a lot of them would flinch if you said they looked like girls, because I will bet you that a lot of them are happy enough to be considered men - attractive men.

Omega M is just a slender lithe male. His face is masculine and so is his body, he just doesn't have a broad chest but he more than likely does have biceps and abdomen development.

A lot of this is subjective, but I wonder if some of this is more an effect of current characters postures and animations then the models themselves. Personally I find miqo'te and midlander males very much in the "beautiful man" vein based on their body type. They're not overly broad, they're lean, and have options for softer features. That said, the resting poses and emotes for them (for miqo'te) are kinda like a runway model getting ready to do a turn or curled forward like he's about ready to run.

One of the reasons I love playing as a female Roe is because their emotes and resting postures are the only female ones that aren't overly cutesy, sexy, or demure. They're athletic and confidant with their /pose being an awesome flex of her arm and flashing a grin. It's not any less feminine, just a different sort. If fem Roes had poses and emotes in the same style as female miqo'te or hyr, I'd likely be playing a male character.

Male models really don't have an equivalent. Male lalafel's are cute and elezan are elegant, but there's no race where the male animations are more reserved/demure then the female and in that regard I can understand the want for a different sort of visual masculinity represented in actual body language.

[GenericMagus]

As a female Highlander who has a roedame alt, we already have burly, buff and fierce girls, do they not count, or is this the case of "No True Scotsman?", or do we just lack fur to be considered an actual race? (About my character I went for a bifauxnen look.)

This goes to having a more feminine male. You can make them on almost any race. I seen some pretty fragile cats and humans, is it because they're not small enough? It's been pointee out Elezen has dimensions similar to Omega-M but again, "No True Scotsman" applies. They don't have animal ears so I guess they don't count in this community.

Honestly, the people requesting this I feel are ERPers who don't care about the race or their lore, they just want bunny ears on a petite male to LARP with.