Wedging healers into a pure healing role may have some advantages.

[Lyth]

...

I'm not so sure about this. Newer players are often equally if not more anxious to take on tanking roles, partially because there's an (often incorrect) perception that you must know everything in advance. Historically, when you look at queue times, tanks tend to be in scarce supply. So you would expect a shift towards making tanking more 'stress free.'

That's not really the case, with tanks retaining the largest pool of role actions. Whether it be interrupts, raid mitigation, and even just dps, there's a fairly broad suite of responsibilities laid out there, and no signs of stopping.

The reason why the thought of having to do dps creates so much consternation is because it creates a skill differential. As a tank or healer, it's easy to convince yourself that you're good when you have an insular community of players who look up to you and respect your ability to shepherd them through basic content. Hey, you can clear it. They don't know any better. You don't know any better. But everyone you know seems to think you're good at what you do. So when you come on to an online forum and suddenly discover otherwise, a certain amount of resentment is, well, expected. Down with those dps healers.

I think the reason why this is less of an issue on tanks is because doing dps has invaded our general consciousness. Anyone who might have dissented previously has thankfully already been converted by fire and sword (and if they haven't, let us know!) I'm trying to think of the last time that "should tanks do dps" was a serious conversation that we've had on the forums - I'm thinking maybe late Heavensward? Early Stormblood at the very latest? So from a developer perspective, it's relatively clear what our priorities are. There are still plenty of design problems in the process, but at least they know we want to do damage.

Here, things seem much more ambivalent. Some people seemingly just want to spread flowers and love, others want a mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. I'm not entirely sure why this still seems contentious over here. But if you can get a more unified response, I think you'll at least get closer to what you want.

I do think that more of the buffing/debuffing elements should be shifted over to healers in general, especially since they're here to stay on AST. CC would be interesting as well, if there were actually raid opportunities to use it. I'm not sure why Repose is a role action, but could you have sleepable adds in raids?

[NorthernLadMSP]

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

^This. All of this.

[NorthernLadMSP]

Unfortunately, the dev team thinks that by constantly listening to those players, it will increase the healer pool. If anything, I fully anticipate Healing in Need to dominate this expansion; relieving tanks for the first time ever.

Agreed. And the healers that do queue up will most likely be the bads who stand there doing no DPS at all and still let people die.

[Alathon]

Agreed. And the healers that do queue up will most likely be the bads who stand there doing no DPS at all and still let people die.

There is a part of me that would enjoy the sheer potential for passive-aggression in RPing a Sylphie, but I try to leave that sort of attitude for activities intended to be competitive.

That said... I always did like spellcasters in FFT. Maybe my Stone IV needs a quote macro...

Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
(Luscious Locks@Balmung) is that really necessary?
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!
Alathon Amroth: Earth rise, and rock! Stone IV!

[Toystore]

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

[Jollyy5]

The usual

Having a poorly implemented pure healer in a game environment that doesn't accommodate pure healers isn't a fix though...

[HyoMinPark]

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

This is FFXIV. Not any other MMO. Just because other MMOs do things one way doesn’t mean this game also has to do them that way. They don’t all have to follow some common formula for playstyle, and I actually quite like FFXIV’s playstyle for healers. I have since I started in early Heavensward.

What’s wrong with having a hybrid? There’s not enough outgoing damage in this game to warrant 80~90% healing. Not even in Savages and Ultimates—Ultimate, at most, has maybe 50% healing uptime if you’re playing super safe and overhealing. The damage is too scripted and spaced out to warrant anything more than that (and the scriptedness of the damage tends to line up with the healing oGCDs often enough, so that really trivializes things). And it gets worse as the content trickles down. Sure, there are some healer mechanics in the more “casual” pieces of content, but nothing too serious. Certainly not an extreme amount unless you have the worst party imaginable—and, at that point, it’s not the content calling for it; it’s just your people debuff hard at work.

Some of us enjoy juggling both, because it means that we are constantly busy with something. I honestly can’t fathom how some people can stand to only be active 20% of the time in content—or cast Cure I constantly each time the tank dips below 95% HP. That seems like a stale playstyle to me, and it’s never been how I’ve played healers. No other role is “allowed” to be active half of the time and inactive the other half, so I’m not sure why some healers think they can contribute half while the rest of the party contributes 100%. Again, this is not a mindset or playstyle I have ever understood.

So why are we the ones that need to bugger off and “go play a DPS”? I main a DPS, but I enjoy healers as well because I like the juggling of healing and dealing damage in this game. This “new system” didn’t remove healer’s damage dealing capabilities, so they will still be expected to use them, I’m sorry to say. oGCD heals are still present on the same CD (some with the same potency, like Earthly Star), and some healers even got more oGCDs to use (SCH’s new Sacred Soil is busted if it remains the same from the media tour). And I don’t really expect the healing requirements to drastically increase in 5.0. Not given SE’s track record of making things easier instead of more challenging. I wish it would—but I won’t be surprised if it doesn’t.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I highly doubt that they design the jobs around Savage/Ultimate (though they should)—considering the issue we’ve had the last 4 years of them wondering why BRD/MCH always wanted DRGs or why BRD ended up dealing far more damage than they anticipated once they partied up with a DRG—because they never considered piercing resistance down when it came to balancing those two jobs. They balance jobs solo against their roles, not in a party setting with buffs in mind (again, see BRD’s power creep this expansion—I don’t think they considered how critical a DRG, Battle Litany, and Chain Stratagem would be to the job). At least, that’s how it’s been in the past. Look no further than BRD/MCH for proof of that.

All jobs are balanced to clear Savage/Ultimate, but I don’t think they design them exclusively around that content in mind. They certainly don’t balance them around the way they are commonly played in Savage/Ultimate.

We just want to pew pew? Did you ever consider that we enjoy juggling both? I would rather have more healing uptime in fights. I would like a balance 50/50 in most content, and the highest end content shifting towards more healing compared to damage. But I don’t want 100% healing because that would take away the fun of juggling both, which is what made healers ultimately fun for me. People hated the old Cleric Stance, but I loved stance dancing in Heavensward with it. It kept me active and engaged, and anything that keeps me active and engaged is a plus in my book.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

It’s unlikely that 5.0 healers will fall into this “pure healer” role that you want so much. Just based on what we have heard thus far from the healers at E3 that said they were doing just about the same healing in the level 73 content compared to what they do now. We’ll know for certain in a few days, but I seriously doubt we’re going to see a shift to “pure healing”—there’s no way they’ll call for 80~90% healing in all pieces of content. I said it earlier in the thread: I love this game, but the developers design it to be easy and “newcomer friendly”.



All this being said, I don’t think you have much right in telling career healers to “buzz off and just go play a DPS” because we disagree on how healers should be handled. I may raid on a DPS most of the time, but I play my healers far more—and in all types of content: from dungeons and 24-mans to Extremes to Savage and Ultimate. I also don’t think you have the right to tell us not to voice our opinions on a public forum designed for discussion and feedback. You’re welcome to voice your opinion, but we are welcome to voice ours as well.

[ty_taurus]

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

How dare you. How can you be so utterly selfish to just tell of an entire player base of people who want to juggle healing and DPSing just because that's not how you want to play? What gives you the right to demand such a thing? You are not above the rest of us and you have no place telling us to go play DPS and leave you alone.

You don't want to DPS? Then don't! You'll still clear content.

[Deceptus]

I like how everyone for the healer changes are either extremely bad healers or don't play healers at all, and the ones against it actually play healers and are good at their job.

Really puts things into perspective. It's fine if you either don't care about healer changes or are not effected about healer changes because you never learned what optimizing on a job is, but at least let the healers who knows what they're talking about get their feedback and opinions out to SE without a "shut up everything is fine" remark every other post.

QFT.

If you didn't like to DPS, no one forced you to. "But savage groups required it". Then form your own. "But it's hard" Yeah, it is. That's why better groups want healer dps. To make everyone's lives a little easier.

[Urthdigger]

I've played a healer since Everquest and FF14 has had hands down the worst healing of any MMO I've ever played. I brought this problem up WAY back in 2.0. SE felt it would just go away if they ignored it and it only got worse.

What you want is not a healer. It's some hybrid. I've wanted a healer since 2.0 and I'm finally getting one. Most of the posts on this subforum are just pointless snark from people who want dps classes with healing spells and NO amount of changes from SE are ever going to make you happy in the new system. Just go play a dps and leave pure healers the hell alone.

And yeah, you know what maybe you won't be able to occupy yourself during trivial content because the class is designed around savage/ultimate so it lacks the tool kit to dps in trivial leveling content. You know what? Too. Damn. Bad. They messed this role up big time back in ARR and it needs fixing. It should have been fixed a long time ago but since the problems are so systemic they WILL either show up with awkward play at the low end or high end. And I would rather have the high end be balanced for pure healer at the expense of the low end not letting you dps like before. Essentially none of this justification matters because certain dps players who ended up playing healers just don't care WHAT the argument is. You want to pew pew so there's literally nothing that we can say to make it otherwise except tell you to buzz off to a dps class. Bottom line.

I would have never responded but this attitude just aggravates me so much because there IS a cohort of pure healers that come with the genre and they've always wanted this role. And now that we get it there's a group of dps players masquerading as healers that just can't either 1) advocate for some hybrids while letting us have our role or 2) just be quiet and go play a dps class if you like it so much

Some of us are here to actually play the game, not sit around doing nothing when the tank is topped off. We're not advocating DPSing because we want to DPS, we're advocating DPS because sitting around doing nothing sounds idiotic when we could be helping. Just because you're a prissy princess who won't deign to sully their hands with the peasant work of DPSing doesn't mean the rest of us are so self-centered as to make the rest of the party do all the work.