Will bard lose it's identity/class fantasy?

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Basically, I played Bard because it was the closest thing after AST in the game to being a support role. I played to refresh resources, throw mitigation around, boost damage, and interrupt enemies on a regular basis.

Now I have one damage boost and one mitigation per three minutes (where dancer is nearly always buffing someone), a cleanse that almost never sees use, a healing boost on one target (when Dancer flat out has a heal), and some shared Crowd Controls that I have to hope Square Enix actually makes matter outside of Eureka, Deep Dungeons, and a random Savage floor or two for the first time since ARR.

The stuff I like has been removed and Dancer conveniently turns up with some of it (the most desired piece by the widespread community at that!).

tl;dr Dancer beat up my Bard for their lunch money support-hybrid role and I've every right to be concerned about being shoved into MCH's "but hey, at least you're a better personal DPS!" corner when I didn't PLAY Bard to be a better pDPS (I've got BLACK MAGE for that). I've lived in the healer equivalent to that corner as WHM for years and it isn't enjoyable.

[Raldo]

Sounds like you'll be happy playing Dancer then.

[ty_taurus]

because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

Deuce completely annihilating every enemy in an entire zone using Black Requiem would like to have a word with you.

And if you want to argue that I'm using a different Final Fantasy which has different worldly rules to it (which I have a strong feeling you'd do), then I suppose the concept of a magical song is just that ridiculous that it wouldn't fit anywhere in the land of Eorzea, where Machinists can pull massive gadgets out of thin air, Dragons can somehow cause rays of light to emit from every stab of their spear, Samurai can emit flower petals with every slice of a katana, Dark Knights in probably 120 lbs armor can do backflips, Paladins also in 120 lbs armor can leap 8 feet in the air and hover as they wag their sword around to somehow strike every foe within 5 yalms, and Ninjas can conjure elephant-sized frogs to burp fire onto your enemies.

You're right, you totally can't stop the ascians with songs. Astrologians defeating them with sparkly lights is more believable.

[Greven]

The only thing I can't accept is BRD songs having no effects on others. Is he that bad? Is he airplaying? Put back that symbolic 2-3% crit/dh buff!

[Darkpaw]

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon. This time it's a bow that has heavily leaned into doubling as a musical instrument in many of it's weapon designs. It's a buff job historically.. sure it is. As for songs being magical. They currently are in this game as well they just don't do spells, and when the concept flirted with that back in heavensward bards threw a friggen tantrum (rightfully so but aside from the point). This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity. Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all. If you think you're class or your job fantasy got gutted. Go find a summoner main from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 this is a job that has a right to complain about Job Identity.

And while yes this is a different final fantasy games and the rules can be bent here to allow some of the examples you've shown. The work on bard isn't nearly as grievous as it seems. You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all. 3% passive crit buff that was actually meant more for yourself than for anyone in the party because your procs relied on your dots critting, foe's requiem is gone.. troubador isn't as good anymore.. well abjectively troubador is still just fine and a lot more useful now. Warden's has it's uses.

So the new job came in and stole some of your thunder took some of your support skills. Guess what? It happens to every role every time a new job is introduced. One of the jobs gets robbed of it's spot and it's lime light. It happened when Astro, dark, and MCH were introduced, it happened with samurai and red mage, it's going to happen with gunbreaker and dancer. You'll end up just fine with your class fantasy in tact.. heck if you raise enough voices and ask the devs nicely in a suggestion thread.. before august when 6.0 road map is finalize and keep at it through expansion im sure your vision of more songs will come true, but saying that you are being robbed of class identity and fantasy is over the top. You aren't. Not even close. The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

So take your bow like a true bard would, let the dancer have it's moment in the sun. It's only two years. You'll get your encore I'm sure cause as I said before. Bard is still the singularly most popular job in this game.. or at least one of them and I'm sure that is not going to change.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon.

Because there isn't a class in that game that CAN'T use knives.

This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity.

I don't know how you can say this with a straight face. It's the most different it's been from every single other installment, yet it's closer than ever to what it should be? What's your basis for what the class fantasy of Bard is?

For me, it's D&D's bard, Etrian Odyssey's troubadour, and FF4/5/11's Bard. A supportive spellcaster/performer who uses the arts as spell mediums and often has supplemental combat or support abilities. Keyword "supplemental" there. Not "archer with some songs that only buff themself most of the time."

Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all.

Counting the role actions, we're losing literally HALF of our non-bind/interrupt support options numerically. That fits my definition of gutted.

You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all.

They de facto have. Songs don't do anything close to what they do in other FF games, let alone other fantasy media, anymore. FF14 bard songs don't do in exact effect or archetype (support) what they did when this game launched or how they're described in the lore for ARR (same issue AST will now have)!

The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

In several decades of the fantasy media and roleplaying I've experienced, what the Bard's songs do for the party is literally a core aspect of Bard's identity. It's what separates them from any fop with a little skill at the lute, a distinction FF14 itself calls out in bard lore (only true bards, who'd known loss, could sing songs that produced powerful effects in the listeners).

[ty_taurus]

Harps or knives.. well lookie there Bard still has a alternative weapon. This time it's a bow that has heavily leaned into doubling as a musical instrument in many of it's weapon designs. It's a buff job historically.. sure it is. As for songs being magical. They currently are in this game as well they just don't do spells, and when the concept flirted with that back in heavensward bards threw a friggen tantrum (rightfully so but aside from the point). This iteration of bard is the closest it's been to it's core job identity. Yes you lost a few buffs. The horror of it all. You weren't gutted. At all. If you think you're class or your job fantasy got gutted. Go find a summoner main from 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 this is a job that has a right to complain about Job Identity.

And while yes this is a different final fantasy games and the rules can be bent here to allow some of the examples you've shown. The work on bard isn't nearly as grievous as it seems. You act as if songs have become completely removed from bard at all. 3% passive crit buff that was actually meant more for yourself than for anyone in the party because your procs relied on your dots critting, foe's requiem is gone.. troubador isn't as good anymore.. well abjectively troubador is still just fine and a lot more useful now. Warden's has it's uses.

So the new job came in and stole some of your thunder took some of your support skills. Guess what? It happens to every role every time a new job is introduced. One of the jobs gets robbed of it's spot and it's lime light. It happened when Astro, dark, and MCH were introduced, it happened with samurai and red mage, it's going to happen with gunbreaker and dancer. You'll end up just fine with your class fantasy in tact.. heck if you raise enough voices and ask the devs nicely in a suggestion thread.. before august when 6.0 road map is finalize and keep at it through expansion im sure your vision of more songs will come true, but saying that you are being robbed of class identity and fantasy is over the top. You aren't. Not even close. The identity is more being focused on the Bard itself rather than what the bard does for the party.

So take your bow like a true bard would, let the dancer have it's moment in the sun. It's only two years. You'll get your encore I'm sure cause as I said before. Bard is still the singularly most popular job in this game.. or at least one of them and I'm sure that is not going to change.

As someone who also loves summoner, Bard has far more right to complain about job identity. Summoner can now call for demi-primals, which is light years ahead of where it was.

Bard is still a Ranger. And look, I don't hate the Ranger job. Let it exist in its own right because it certainly deserves it too, but just stop calling it what it isn't.

If a job came along wielding Bells and casting nature magic, but also kinda-sorta could cast an attack speed slow debuff on enemies once every 30 seconds, should we call it Time Mage?

If a job came along that controlled an automaton, but also had the ability to throw knives as a long ranged attack, should we call it Juggler?

If a job came along wearing furs and using berserk and rage based attacks with claws, but can also summon a lion to attack for 15 seconds once every 90 seconds, should we call it Beast Master?

If you answered no to any of these, then why is it that when a job comes along that uses a bow to bombard enemies with arrows, but can also occasionally sing a song to shift their DPS cycle, we call it a Bard?

[Darkpaw]

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

[ty_taurus]

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

The reason your example utterly fails to display what you think of the situation is because IF Bard only sang and had no bow and arrow actions whatsoever, then someone complaining about it not being a true Bard would be like complaining that a Monk using only martial arts wasn't a true Monk, or that a Black Mage only casting black magic spells wasn't a true Black Mage.

[Connor]

Simply put there is no pleasing any one in these forums. Like no matter what you people will find something to complain about for no apparent reason than you can. Like oh my god bard doesn't do anything but sing it's not a true bard. So why not take away the bow, bring back caster bard, and make it the magic dps equivalent to dancer in 6.0. Good god.

This thread has 6 pages of replies and you still seem to be missing the point. Why are you so angry at the thought that maybe Bard is being sold as one thing when it’s another? Or do you think it’s ok for Black Mage to be purely physical based bare handed melee DPS that rotate between a single fire, ice, lightning spell, on a 80 second cooldown, with that cooldown having no further relation to anything actually involving black magic? Oh and Monk is the base job so nobody who wants to be a Monk can really be a Monk, they have to one with black magic cooldowns. Nobody can be a Black Mage because of the physical mechanics. Then in between those long magic cooldowns, you just...punch. Great. Nothing wrong with the design.Except it’s not very ‘Black Mage’, is it?

Let’s not kid ourselves here either. Bard isn’t the most popular in the game. Not even close. But Archer is. It just so happens that Bard is attached to it.
I think everyone would win if Bard and Archer got turned into separate jobs. Archers can be Archers, Bards can be Bards.

You make it sound as if making Bard a caster is somehow an inherently bad thing. Nobody cared about cast times on their Bard. What they did care about was a poorly designed Archery mechanic that didn’t add anything worthwhile to the gameplay. And yes, a song that you use solely to augment your physical Arrow shots is, by all means and purposes, an archery mechanic. The point people are making are that even if you deleted the three main songs and replaced them with ‘Arrow Shot 1/2/3’ there would be absolutely no changes to the gameplay or overall feel of the class. Which isn’t a problem alone, but begs the question ‘is this really a Bard?’

Some of us signed up to play Bard in 1.0 when it really was more magical based. Songs were real support abilities with a fixed buff uptime (e.g 30 seconds) with cast times that even required proper positioning sometimes. You could cast a variety of White Magic (Cure/Raise/Protect/Stoneskin) to support the party. Hell you could use Black Magic if you wanted to. That job I played flat out does not exist anymore, and has continued to go further and further in the opposite direction as time went on.

If they removed Bard and renamed it Ranger in the game right now, I don’t think anyone would bat an eyelid. But if they removed Archer and made a pure Bard, well...