Will bard lose it's identity/class fantasy?

[Raikai]

And what do all those renditions (minus one), have in common?

Yep, they are all trash.

XIV's Bard could be designed to look like any example of previous bard and be so OP broken that they'd need a nerf. The opposite is true as well.

A lot of ShB DNC job fantasy is very similar to previous iterations, because you'll... er, dance a lot. But who knows, the job might be trash or really convoluted, or (hopefully) work out flawlessly.

Gameplay viability has nothing to do with job theme/fantasy.

[Darkpaw]

Why is Bard the odd man out who isn't allowed to thrive in the job fantasy of running into battle with nothing but a flute or a harp and using exclusively music to help allies and hurt enemies? Yeah, the support role in ARR was deemed too niche and was cut from the game, but what's wrong with a DPS using music to attack? Deuce does it and she's arguably the most broken character in Type-0 besides maybe Rem abusing Reraise + Summoning.

Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

This whole thread is just.. wow..

[Raikai]

Because logic? You say the fact that you can't just run in with a harp/flute into a battle destroys the job fantasy, but for me.. if I saw a bard running up to let's just say.. Shinryu with a harp/flute.. "welp he's dead." and if he wasn't i'd be like that's completely ridiculous. Attaching it to a bow makes sense from a realism perspective. The flute/harp aspect still exists in Bard. it's not like they stripped those animations away. A lot of this sounds like Bard's finding something to throw a fit about because they are losing their guaranteed spot in basically any party.

Songs are still a thing. Oh no Bard is losing all it's support! We're being homogenized, we're losing our job fantasy! You mean like Machinist did in 4.0? Bard isn't crit proc based anymore so there's no need for the 3% crit rate buff anymore, Foe's was a touch and go thing that was a balancing nightmare and pretty much made bard mandatory. Warden's is still around, playing music to help soothe what ails you. Wanderer's, Mage's, and Army's is still all there and key aspects of the rotation, Pitch Perfect is still there, Battle voice is still there! Troubador is still there! Granted it works a bit differently but it's all still there. You lost one song. Foe's which needed to be gone so that we could finally get a balanced Physical Ranged sub role. Because as it stood through this expansion the physical ranged sub role has been.. Bard and "Omg what is that a mange infested dying mutt that's been run over by a train and struck by lightning?"

This whole thread is just.. wow..

The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.

[Darkpaw]

The problem is that the archery aspect is way more proeminent than the bardic aspect. Why the proc arrow couldn't be "Refulgent Song" instead, or something like that? I think it's fine for it to use bow and arrows for the regular rotational attacks, but we needed more stuff involving songs to justify the job's name.

They could keep MCH like it was and just adjust or create new abilities with gunplay in mind, but they actually went for a thematic change and made MCH live up to the job's name and not feel like a gunner with some touches of machinist here and there.

No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

[ty_taurus]

No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

Bard Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
synonyms: poet, versifier, verse-maker, rhymester, rhymer, sonneteer, lyricist, lyrist, elegist

Yup, a bow and arrow is definitely what defines a bard

[Raikai]

No they couldn't keep machinist how it was. From what few machinists laid it was apparent they needed to have a complete change in how they approached machinist or by the end of Shadowbringers they'd be sitting on a dead job that somehow even less people played. Bard is and has always been one of the most if not the single most popular job in this game. So no, they aren't going to change what they are doing with bard because of that fact. "I want more song based stuff." You have a lot there still needs to be some modicum of balance with realism in the game. A bard out in the wild is gonna get dead real quick. Archery is directly tied to bard to make it more plausible that they can survive the events we as WoL/WoD experience. I'm a die hard fan of this franchise in general and I can honestly say I love the take this Dev team has taken with Bard, it's creative and an interesting take, and the job feels realistic to the world it operates in.

Bards haven't lost any job fantasy. Not in the slightest. Music is still at the core of the job. If anything between Stormblood and Shadowbringers, bard is closer to fulfilling it's truest job fantasy than it has ever been and I fully expect it to remain as one of the most popular classes in this game. Even if during Shadowbringers it takes a slight dip in the popularity because of the shiny new toys Machinist has or Dancer and it's litany of buffs.

I worded my post poorly about MCH: I meant, they could keep the theme gunner and just redesign the abilities around gunplay, essentially making it work but keeping the theme the same, but they didn't: Yoshi P even stated that MCH felt more like a gunner than a machinist per se, hence the changes. (and it got me quite surprised because in the beginning of SB I was here in this forum being read to filth for suggesting EXACTLY what they made for MCH: be themed around Edgar's Tools)

About the BRD, I'm not suggesting either it to be fully song-based, but the scale is turned way more to the archery side, and that is what feels weird. A better thematic balance could be achieved, but alas this is a personal expectation of the job, of course people that enjoy it for what it is at the moment will disagree.

[Darkpaw]

Bard Definition: a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition.
synonyms: poet, versifier, verse-maker, rhymester, rhymer, sonneteer, lyricist, lyrist, elegist

Yup, a bow and arrow is definitely what defines a bard

because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

[Raikai]

because poetry and reciting epics, and singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea, it will stop ascians from their pursuit of remerging the shards and freeing zodiark, it'll stop the flood of light from engulfing the first right?

There are worse things than giving bard a bow that usually comes attached with a harp or is very harp oriented, there's nothing in the bard tool kit that calls attention to the fact that it's a bard. Bard doesn't use songs to power up their attacks, Their entire kit, it's just ranger/hunter esque with no musical flavor at all.

Well, one could argue that you couldn't dance your way to Eorzea salvation either, lol.

[Darkpaw]

Well, one could argue that you couldn't dance your way to Eorzea salvation either, lol.

good point but then again Dancer comes with chakrams and other throwing weapons that it can use to attack, and using dancing as another aspect of it to "encourage" (aka buff) team mates. And in turn buffing those team mates and seeing them do better and respond positively to their dances, gives them resources back as if re-energizing them. From a stand point it makes sense. Bard is much the same place. It still uses songs. Music, being a Bard is at the very core of it. The weapon and skills the bard uses is amplified and made more powerful by the bard's songs. They've struck a good balance between what a bard is in its theme and how to make it viably survivable in this world. That's my point.

Bard isn't just some ranger knock off. It's Bard. It's an Eorzean realistic Bard. Songs, are at it's core, music, is a major recurring factor in every aspect of bard between combat and out of combat with the performance skill only being able to be used by having the bard job unlocked. Saying Bard is losing it's identity because it's lost a few minor support skills is ridiculous when the themes of what a bard is.. is rampant throughout the job in more ways than almost any other job in this game. Bard's identity is perfectly secure and easy to spot. No other job has such a focus on songs or music in general. The A.F. gear makes it very clear that bard is a performer but it still holds function while out in the wild.

[Gaethan_Tessula]

because... singing songs will stop the empire from destroying Eorzea...

Bard songs are magic. Saying they aren't enough is like saying that White Mage just throws rocks and blows air at people.

You can solo FF5 as Bard. Once you get to really powerful songs, like the one that raises your level, it's not even that bad. No bow or swords even, you're restricted to harps or knives.

Bards in other IP's can also run pure spellcasting (read: magical performance arts) builds. Spell focused Bard is top tier in D&D 5e.

Given that there are Bard spells in Final Fantasy already that deal straight damage, including in FF14(!), there's no reason why the lore couldn't have support singing enemies to death. Or just a greater focus on songs over archery in general.

Also, saving nations doesn't realistically come down to single people mowing down everything. Supporting movements and causes with the arts is a major way to present ideas and sway public opinion. Through music alone, Bard is hypothetically better situated to driving positive change in FF14's world than many Disciple of War jobs, from a social science standpoint.

From a stand point it makes sense. Bard is much the same place. It still uses songs. Music, being a Bard is at the very core of it. The weapon and skills the bard uses is amplified and made more powerful by the bard's songs. They've struck a good balance between what a bard is in its theme and how to make it viably survivable in this world. That's my point.

...Songs, are at it's core, music, is a major recurring factor in every aspect of bard between combat and out of combat with the performance skill only being able to be used by having the bard job unlocked. Saying Bard is losing it's identity because it's lost a few minor support skills is ridiculous when the themes of what a bard is rampant throughout the job in more ways than... any other job...

Part of Bard's musical identity throughout Final Fantasy is that the song primarily empower one's allies. FF14's 30-50 job quests reiterate this: a Bard's song improve their allies.

FF14 Bard is LOSING aspects of that class fantasy in Shadowbringers and getting nothing to replace them. We're losing Foe's Requiem and the crit aura to allies on our rotational songs. Troubadour had its duration halved, though it IS easier to use now. We're ALSO losing many of the role action support skills, which is a loss for the entire ranged DPS/Support role. Pallisade, Refresh, and Tactician are ALL gone.

Bard loses 4 support skills counting those, its songs no longer buff (asides from Battle Voice once/3 minutes), and in return we get more pew-pew with a coat of "musical" paint slapped on.

I don't care how good Bard is in raid meta. I raided as healer and caster. I did enjoy being a support hybrid in casual through EX content, which is greatly gutted in Shadowbringers because Dancer's gotta get pushed.