Dark Knight Media Tour Feedback

[shao32]

Pretty sure that wasn't their intent ( at least i hope^^). They kinda did listen to feedback. DA spam was reduced and uncoupled it from the other abilities to remove the double weaving requirement( yeah that turned out great). They gave Drk a burst window like War ( literally). Darkside was turned from a passiv buff to something that needs to be managed (in theory). It's now “easier” to bottom out ( the difficulty in SB was in not over capping) and they gave Drk a thematic raid cd.

The problem is they went much to literal about it and didn't look at why people disliked the things they changed and also what those changes would do to the gameplay. Ironicly one of the major changes they didn't address was Drk needing a second combo finisher to shake up the gcd game at least a little bit.

The problem I saw is the selective changes they made, I can't recall see feedback based on what we get, will true ppl complaint about dark arts we repeat in every big and small DRK thread that we want to be more like HW and recover all the weight on the mechanics that become nerfed like darkside and dark arts tactical use.

At the same time I never saw ppl asking for more burst on DRK but we complaint about how WAR burst was a bit broken and how they benefic from the meta, getting inner release with all the 5.0 changes is against of all our feedback, literally they take the route of "they complaint about it we will remove it then" ignoring everything else.

Deliberated or not I consider SE keep ignoring DRK feedback, like if someone look the thread tittle and not looking the inside complete missing the point again and again.

[Satarn]

I'm also pretty sure, that a lot of people are going to play and enjoy the new DRK, with the class being the poster boy for the expansion, the pretty nice looking animation and ease of play.

The issue is that a lot of people don't actually play jobs right and thus don't understand how they work - I don't mean they don't fully optimize, but straight up fail to utilize job mechanics. For people like this anything will "feel" good, as long as it looks good.

It seems to be SE's go-to strategy for "fixing" jobs tbh, just slap a bunch of flashy effects and people will eat it up. It's easy to see with MCH - they tried to make it more appealing in SB so they added acrobatics to every gcd while actually breaking the gameplay. With SHB again they doubled down on the flash with tools and a mecha and look at how many people suddnely wanna switch to MCH - all the while experienced MCH players already theorycraft it to not just suffer from same gameplay issues as before, but suffer from them even harder.

The problem I saw is the selective changes they made, I can't recall see feedback based on what we get, will true ppl complaint about dark arts we repeat in every big and small DRK thread that we want to be more like HW and recover all the weight on the mechanics that become nerfed like darkside and dark arts tactical use.

Part of the problem is that a lot of people giving feedback pointed out what they don't like, while failing to realize why it's an issue and not explaining it properly. Look at how many people rejoiced at the removal of DA without even thinking what it really means. SE has a tendency to remove mechanics rather than fix them, but a chunk of community really encourages that.

I've seen a lot of people asking for DA to be replaced with some burst buff like FoF or IR or complain about how DRK has to "work so much more than other tanks for the same results", so it's not so surprising they dumbed it down and made the job play more like WAR. I really wish people were more thoughtful with their feedback honestly.

Although I more wish devs used their "professional experience" to, well, know better.

[shao32]

Part of the problem is that a lot of people giving feedback pointed out what they don't like, while failing to realize why it's an issue and not explaining it properly. Look at how many people rejoiced at the removal of DA without even thinking what it really means. SE has a tendency to remove mechanics rather than fix them, but a chunk of community really encourages that.

I've seen a lot of people asking for DA to be replaced with some burst buff like FoF or IR or complain about how DRK has to "work so much more than other tanks for the same results", so it's not so surprising they dumbed it down and made the job play more like WAR. I really wish people were more thoughtful with their feedback honestly.

Although I more wish devs used their "professional experience" to, well, know better.

well yeah i agreed, this changes exist bcs that kind of feedback was made, but at the same time that feedback was never supported, big DRK threads was made by Lyth, Chrono and others giving pretty clear feedback about what we want and the direction of the job should be more like HW, all of then was highly supported by us, so the logic of the rework blow my mind.

[ADVSS]

The issue is that a lot of people don't actually play jobs right and thus don't understand how they work - I don't mean they don't fully optimize, but straight up fail to utilize job mechanics. For people like this anything will "feel" good, as long as it looks good.

It seems to be SE's go-to strategy for "fixing" jobs tbh, just slap a bunch of flashy effects and people will eat it up. It's easy to see with MCH - they tried to make it more appealing in SB so they added acrobatics to every gcd while actually breaking the gameplay. With SHB again they doubled down on the flash with tools and a mecha and look at how many people suddnely wanna switch to MCH - all the while experienced MCH players already theorycraft it to not just suffer from same gameplay issues as before, but suffer from them even harder.



Part of the problem is that a lot of people giving feedback pointed out what they don't like, while failing to realize why it's an issue and not explaining it properly. Look at how many people rejoiced at the removal of DA without even thinking what it really means. SE has a tendency to remove mechanics rather than fix them, but a chunk of community really encourages that.

I've seen a lot of people asking for DA to be replaced with some burst buff like FoF or IR or complain about how DRK has to "work so much more than other tanks for the same results", so it's not so surprising they dumbed it down and made the job play more like WAR. I really wish people were more thoughtful with their feedback honestly.

Although I more wish devs used their "professional experience" to, well, know better.

Yeah I mean when ss recovers 1/4 of what it currently does, with an mp pool almost right in line with the 10k we will be getting its clear that the potency increases from using DA are baked into a forced rotation, that we lost the choice to boost the attack(or defense in HW which i liked)
The blood gauge really felt forced and tacked on in SB despite the fact we were already maintaining a gauge in mp, so much so that the kit had to be stripped to feel mostly complete at near max level(does anyone even use SB delirium?).
But DA maintenence being gone is illusory, its just harder now to bounce back if you bottom out because the gains are 4x less
DA spam might have been annoying but the HW rendition made it both an offensive and defensive choice when planning ahead.
I wouldve liked to go back to HW but made the magic only concept a little more fair and streamlined to the other 3 tanks.
Then I wouldve wanted a fair look at living dead, and see if we couldnt get DRK some more survivability(burst lifetap), in their own themed way.
But again, never fond of the gauge to begin with.Anyway, I guess the management of darkside and blood gauge, is now just a syntax replacement to the mp management, and everyones forced to at least perform half optimally, or theyll go out of darkside and mp.(not that DS is anything to worry about, just feels tacky but unnecessary with the romaval of skills that having it on blocked like BP.)
But again, not a hardcore raider, so I didnt think we needed Fell Cleavez, rather a little more utility, and a fair invuln that works outside raids and voicechat(which the game does not provide) personally, id like to see parries work on magic as well, but thats just another gripe of mine.

[Satarn]

The blood gauge really felt forced and tacked on in SB despite the fact we were already maintaining a gauge in mp, so much so that the kit had to be stripped to feel mostly complete at near max level(does anyone even use SB delirium?).

What the- wha- oh my god, please tell me you're joking. SB Delirium is an important part of DRK's kit, it increases your Blood Weapon uptime by a lot and should be used as much as possible.

Blood gauge was actually implemented very well - it interacted with MP through TBN and Delirium, both in single target and AoE. Having to keep an eye on both resources and having synergy between them was part of the design and it worked great. Removal of HW skills had nothing to do with implementation of blood gauge. They all had their clear problems and SE simply chose to remove rather than rework them. It was a bad decision imo, but again, nothing to do with the gauge.

The main thing I recall regarding DRK burst was that it really didn't have a burst phase of it's own, it relied more on shifting stuff around to better line up with raid buff windows.

That's not an "issue" it's part of fun and identity of the job. It made DRK active and flexible. Who cares that WAR's timed burst is better for dps in most encounters(given you actually have right raid buffs timed with that burst)- it's WAR's thing to do more damage, buffing DRK could've been working more on it's already stronger self mitigation and adding utility. There's no way SE will let WAR not be ahead in damage anyways, we've already seen it in SB.

I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head)

No. Just don't try to make DRK play more like WAR and let it be it's own job, how about that? If somebody wants to play a timed burst job, they know where to go.
Delirium did indeed feel somewhat "flat" at first, but ultimately it plays part in MP and blood management and does it's job. There was no need to "fix" it. Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button - that'd be boring.

[WhyAmIHere]

What the- wha- oh my god, please tell me you're joking. SB Delirium is an important part of DRK's kit, it increases your Blood Weapon uptime by a lot and should be used as much as possible.

Blood gauge was actually implemented very well - it interacted with MP through TBN and Delirium, both in single target and AoE. Having to keep an eye on both resources and having synergy between them was part of the design and it worked great. Removal of HW skills had nothing to do with implementation of blood gauge. They all had their clear problems and SE simply chose to remove rather than rework them. It was a bad decision imo, but again, nothing to do with the gauge.

Some of the only issues with the blood gauge was that it was acquired so late (62), the first skill you got with it only worked every 120s (now 80s), the first useable skill you got from it was an AoE skill (which is no longer the case in ShB, and also had to have MP theft added to it early on to offset how SE nerfed DRK's mana economy in 4.0 (which they're removing in 5.0 because reasons)), and TBN came so late, upending the whole "sit on your blood gauge" conditioning 62-69 reinforced (less so once you obtained BS, but still).

It was clunkily implemented, but at least it had impact, unlike lilies.

[Satarn]

Some of the only issues with the blood gauge was that it was acquired so late (62), the first skill you got with it only worked every 120s (now 80s), the first useable skill you got from it was an AoE skill (which is no longer the case in ShB, and also had to have MP theft added to it early on to offset how SE nerfed DRK's mana economy in 4.0 (which they're removing in 5.0 because reasons)), and TBN came so late, upending the whole "sit on your blood gauge" conditioning 62-69 reinforced (less so once you obtained BS, but still).

It was clunkily implemented, but at least it had impact, unlike lilies.

I wouldn't say that warrants calling it "clunky", but the skill order was indeed crap. Imo it should've been TBN > Bloodspiller(+Blackblood Trait) > Quietus > Delirium and screw people saying "well it's kinda underwhelming for the max lvl skill" - it literally doesn't matter. Ultimately it has no bearing on how the job plays at endame however so eeeeh, whatever. Tbh the game could really use a skill level reshuffle in general - mostly to make the early levels less boring.

Calm down now.

Just practicing to play WAR again, since I apparently have no choice now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All I was saying was that if they were going to copy it, at least change it enough to where it's not literally the exact same wordage.

Besides, you got exactly what you didn't want anyways. Direct the anger elsewhere.

Yeah, but changing the wording or making it "cosmetically" not the same, doesn't solve anything at all. It's a useless suggestion that shifts attention from the real issue, like many others... Many which SE apparently took.

[Inuk9]

Just practicing to play WAR again, since I apparently have no choice now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

.

Ok, dude. lul

[whiskeybravo]

No. Just don't try to make DRK play more like WAR and let it be it's own job, how about that? If somebody wants to play a timed burst job, they know where to go.
Delirium did indeed feel somewhat "flat" at first, but ultimately it plays part in MP and blood management and does it's job. There was no need to "fix" it. Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button - that'd be boring.

Calm down now. All I was saying was that if they were going to copy it, at least change it enough to where it's not literally the exact same wordage.

Besides, you got exactly what you didn't want anyways. Direct the anger elsewhere.

Aside from that, thematically DRK has always sacrificed something of it's own to increase it's power. So it's actually more fitting for it to have burst rather than sustained damage. Having a burst doesn't mean it's a Warrior clone - or that would make virtually every job with a burst phase a Warrior clone. Think about what you are saying for a second. "Not everything needs to be a flashy, huge burst button" we aren't talking about EVERYTHING - we are talking about 1 button, you know, the one button that's supposed to make you feel like an awesome DRK lol.

[whiskeybravo]

At the same time I never saw ppl asking for more burst on DRK but we complaint about how WAR burst was a bit broken and how they benefic from the meta, getting inner release with all the 5.0 changes is against of all our feedback, literally they take the route of "they complaint about it we will remove it then" ignoring everything else.

The main thing I recall regarding DRK burst was that it really didn't have a burst phase of it's own, it relied more on shifting stuff around to better line up with raid buff windows. Where WAR is all burst and PLD has fairly sustained output, DRK was just somewhere in the middle - as they seem to be in most other areas.

I'll admit, from the outside looking in Delirium always seemed like a pretty weak ability that could've served a more important purpose. I think the math worked out so it seemed like a fairly strong ability on paper (not really sure), but I don't know, it just seemed to lack any real pizzazz IMO. If they wanted to make it mechanically similar to Inner Release they should've at least done it a different way - like instead of making it "no cost" have it refund the cost after performing an action. Even a little change like that would've at least made it less obvious of an IR clone. (I'm not discounting anything else they could've done with Delirium, just something off the top of my head)