**SPOILERS** Things we caught in the FFXIV launch trailer from E3 **SPOILERS**

[Gwenorai]

Now I'm confused; if those with the echo are supposedly tempered, then what of Ice Heart? Ice Heart also has the Echo and yet became an avatar of another primal. Hm, so obviously the tempering is different - if it's true - regarding mama and daddy crystal.

[Shougun]

Now I'm confused; if those with the echo are supposedly tempered, then what of Ice Heart? Ice Heart also has the Echo and yet became an avatar of another primal. Hm, so obviously the tempering is different - if it's true - regarding mama and daddy crystal.

I've been thinking perhaps we're one step above just being mega tempered lol (eldest primal tempering, != to what we know), so Zodiark has Ascians.. Hydaelyn has the 12? Who perhaps were a core part of producing the sundering (splitting into 12 shards, for the 12, 13 if you count the "source/original").

Our legacy tattoo is awfully Ascian mask looking:



Maybe we're the 13th (+/- x).

Perhaps that Ascians are a bit like primals of primals, or something akin to FFX Tidus - a manifestation by spirits*. Helping explain our immunity to primal tempering, our infinite teleporting (we don't get anima sickness), our time issues (time bubble, how time passes, and does not pass), and our near endless ability to gain strength as we gain more faith from the people around us. Also like Ascians we had that whole "mortal body" concept, like when Leviathan ate the Sahagin (who had echo and transcended their mortal form) and iirc we were told we weren't nom nom-able since we had a body to inhabit. If we're more powerful perhaps we can nom nom weaker primals, or already do when we win... lol (we're told as much with a whole "you have no idea the true power of Echo").

In that sense I think having echo is just more like saying you're a made of, at least in part, of faith and fantasy (primal/primal-like, I don't think primals can temper each other either lol) and your ability to see things is just your tie in with energy (which is all around).

*In another thread of semi-related topic discussed the possible purpose of making one source two (two primals from one entity "but why?"), and pondered that it might be that the Ascians are truly ancients from a long long past civilization that went through the brink (and made a last ditch reboot script). If one is familiar with FFIX and Garlond / Genome, something drawing similar to that. Why it all went wrong being something about the twelve (also ancients) taking a liking to the new life made during the reboot and deciding to stop the whole process but it cost them dearly (locking away Zodiark, because = Zodiac Ark). Also seems nice in that the true form (or at least 1.0 form) of Ascians is a bit undead wraith (remnants).

[Daralii]

I've been thinking perhaps we're one step above just being mega tempered lol (eldest primal tempering), so Zodiark has Ascians.. Hydaelyn has the 12? Who perhaps were a core part of producing the sundering (splitting into 12 shards, for the 12, 13 if you count the "source/original").

The cave paintings in the trailer show a twelve-pointed starburst plus Hydaelyn and Zodiark, making fourteen. I don't know how that does or doesn't relate to the Twelve or the Ascians(eleven Scions of Light in XII, Ultima, and Zodiark).

[Shougun]

The cave paintings in the trailer show a twelve-pointed starburst plus Hydaelyn and Zodiark, making fourteen. I don't know how that does or doesn't relate to the Twelve or the Ascians(eleven Scions of Light in XII, Ultima, and Zodiark).

Just a huge leap theory lol. Since Zodiark seems to have all his Ascians busy being naughty, but Hydaelyn doesn't seem to have a huge army (and those helping her seem to be starting anew/fresh/weaker, as if she is creating her army for the first time (second time.. )). What if she lost/used that army in causing the sundering.

The 14 number doesn't really bother me though, since then it's 1 for each Hydaelyn "Ascian" (the 12 that were used to sunder Zodiark out of his place, which is of course just a leap theory), and then two for the two eldest primals (perhaps at the sundering which made 13, the 14th is because they locked him out and if he was unlocked it'd be unlocking the "14th shard").

But yeah have your eighteen mountains of salt with all that... lol.

[Ramesses]

I've been thinking perhaps we're one step above just being mega tempered lol (eldest primal tempering, != to what we know), so Zodiark has Ascians.. Hydaelyn has the 12? Who perhaps were a core part of producing the sundering (splitting into 12 shards, for the 12, 13 if you count the "source/original").

Our legacy tattoo is awfully Ascian mask looking:



Maybe we're the 13th (+/- x).

Shougun, I actually like several aspects of your post and I will add that your established theory about the WoL's glyph does venture towards a theory I once mentioned on the lore forums-- that there is always the possibility that Elidibus might have been trying to solidify us into a vessel for Zodiark. However, there is another time and place to discuss that.

In the meantime, allow me to guide you a little further down a certain path. I have said it numerous times that players really REALLY need to play FFXII and get into the truly phenomenal world of Ivalice and its brilliant nuances but to no avail.

Here is a clue for you and make your own assumptions... look very carefully at this image below. It is the glyph of Zalera, the Death Seraph Esper in FFXII that is obtained from the Barheim Passage area. In Ivalive lore, he is also "Emet-Selch" the scion of Light aspect of Zalera, Angel of Truth and has the Zodiac sign of the Gemini.

I repeat... his name is "Emet-Selch". Ring a bell? Firetruck bells jingling yet? Does that name sound awfully familiar from patch 4.5?

Now flip that image upside down and look carefully at the Ascian glyph that Solus uses in the trailer... I still find it astounding that people haven't yet picked up on this following Yoshi's unleashing of the final trailer a couple days ago. I actually mentioned this peculiar similarity already in my blog.

If your mind isn't yet blown to confetti, I'd wager you can just hold the thought for now. As I have been saying for ages... Shadowbringer will be legendarily epic.

[Eloah]

.. his name is "Emet-Selch". Ring a bell? Firetruck bells jingling yet? Does that name sound awfully familiar from patch 4.5?

Okay so I'm a bit lost. I don't recall that name from 4.5. I mean I get what's being implied, but where did we hear that name again?

[Scintilla]

Okay so I'm a bit lost. I don't recall that name from 4.5. I mean I get what's being implied, but where did we hear that name again?

I can recall it being mentioned once in the Seiryu's Wall cutscene. To quote Gaius in that scene: "And while he (Nabriales) was indeed a dangerous foe, his powers were inconsequential next to Paragons of the Source. The first was Lahabrea, who plagues us no more. There is also the white-robed Elidibus; and the elusive Emet-Selch, about whom little is known".

It's not much at all, though perhaps there was another more detailed mention which I've forgotten.

[Eloah]

I can recall it being mentioned once in the Seiryu's Wall cutscene. To quote Gaius in that scene: "And while he (Nabriales) was indeed a dangerous foe, his powers were inconsequential next to Paragons of the Source. The first was Lahabrea, who plagues us no more. There is also the white-robed Elidibus; and the elusive Emet-Selch, about whom little is known".

It's not much at all, though perhaps there was another more detailed mention which I've forgotten.

Knowing how this story goes that's probably all there is since it's a breadcrumb for future event, ie Shadowbringers. If it's a cutscene, I should rewatch it.

[Ramesses]

Knowing how this story goes that's probably all there is since it's a breadcrumb for future event, ie Shadowbringers. If it's a cutscene, I should rewatch it.

Yes... you really should rewatch before Shadowbringer releases. Plus Yoshi's Live letter is tomorrow.

Like I said... prepare for your mind to be blown to confetti.

[Melichoir]

Now I'm confused; if those with the echo are supposedly tempered, then what of Ice Heart? Ice Heart also has the Echo and yet became an avatar of another primal. Hm, so obviously the tempering is different - if it's true - regarding mama and daddy crystal.

Those with the echo dont have to be tempered. People are assuming that since Hydaelyn is a primal, that must mean tempering occurs. But what people didnt think about is what Hydaelin and Zodiark being primals entails - Primals come in tiers.

Tempering is a forceful method of making people believers. You overwrite freewill to get zealots. I suspect, however, that this is done by 'lesser' primals, who have to resort to brutish tactics to get their prayers. But some primals are offered prayers willingly. This is Exactly what Shiva, Thordan, Phoenix (if I understood the Coils storyline.), etc are. They dont need to Temper. They have willing followers. They also have more persona than the lesser primals as well as have a living person act as the framework for that primal.

Im betting that primals become more powerful with prayers offered willingly than those taken by force.

The Echo then wouldnt be a 'tempering effect', but rather just a blessing bestowed upon someone. Or more accurately, its just Hydaelin juicing us with Aetheric Power. That would explain a lot of things (like our stalwart nature, strength, and even the echo - All aether is connected to Hydaelin, so the experiences of a person imprint on aether, which is connected to hydaelin, which then is fed to us through the blessing). While admittedly its pretty unlikely to be the case, the WoL could be a Primal themselves, more akin to Shiva and Thordan. We're nobodies, given a blessing. We accomplish small hero stuff, gain recognition, get more followers and believers, grow in strength physically and magically, stepping beyond the boundaries of the normal adventurer. We cant be tempered because were a primal ourselves (Primals cant temper other primals). So we got the prayer aspect down, its just the aether aspect. Which might explain why Hydaelin is growing weaker. Shes powering us. We dont need to temper, because just like shiva we have willing followers who pray for our success.

I said Primals cant temper other Primals, but that doesnt mean they cant use other primals or influence them. Maybe Hydaelin realizes she cant solve the Zodiark problem (to busy trying to keep life alive or something). So she empowers us to act as a new primal to bridge that gap. It's a primal creating the conditions for a new primal to come along, then leading that one down a path that resolves the issue.