Dark Knight Media Tour Feedback

[guardin]

yeah, all i can say is thanks Yoshi p to make DRK so generic and literaly worse, i guess it was so hard give us a upgraded version of HW gameplay, im switching to GNB please looking forwad to it Yoshi p.

yoshi did GREAT! SB was the BEST...but...they removed dark arts which made the class fun now idk just looks like a dark gunblade class to me. Dark arts was dk identity

[Inuk9]

The fact that a lot of "Fix DRK" threads are just making this thread non-existent proves that the devs really screwed up DRK rework for Shadowbringers... also people need to put the "fix DRK"feedback stuff into this thread rather than making 5-10 different threads...

No, only proves that people need to experience content before make threads with solutions for a job they dont even played it yet.

Everyone can theorycraft rotations but you cant insert that in the new content and predict how it will perform.

People who played it at San Francisco are optimistic so Just chill the f out and wait to see if it is really that bad, that is a crazy idea I know.

[ADVSS]

yoshi did GREAT! SB was the BEST...but...they removed dark arts which made the class fun now idk just looks like a dark gunblade class to me. Dark arts was dk identity

Why does this remind me of 3.0 BRD changes so much?

[shao32]

yoshi did GREAT! SB was the BEST...but...they removed dark arts which made the class fun now idk just looks like a dark gunblade class to me. Dark arts was dk identity

More like a dark WAR with less depth and no longer having anything that remind you you are a DRK Gameplay wise apart of dark mind, livind dead and the animations for me.

[Izsha]

More like a dark WAR with less deep.

Do you have a source for this?

[Magnedeus]

The Madden's curse of ff14. The job on the cover art gets hurt the most, the dark knight.

[shao32]

Do you have a source for this?

Based on the media tour skill set, it's easy to see DRK becomes a 1 combo job that throw a oGCD to don't overcap MP and have all his oGCD simplified aca carve and spit and abyssal drain substituting dark passenger and salted heart.

Then we have the gauge mechanic with its a clear copy paste of WAR gauge mechanic, 90s recast delirium the same of inner release, bloodspiller it's just fell cleave and Quietus it's just decimate working exactly the same, all the flow of DRK around his gauge have been removed and it's exactly the same as the WAR with the exception WAR have direct hit/crits and DRK gain a bit of MP.

Outside of that DRK don't have anything, it's become the most simple tank and the only deep the job will have will be TBN and his potential 500p waste Compared to WAR and PLD that have more combos, extra mechanics like infuriate and the new buffed fell cleaves and the new finish move on requiem cast with PLD apart of other stuff

Yes I consider DRK a poor copy of WAR in literally 50% of his gameplay and the other half its just extreme simple to manage.

All is suggest to change but we all know the media tour is the final build and only will change numbers except we express our disapprove like WHM did in the past and still they almost didn't change at the end.

[WhyAmIHere]

The fact that a lot of "Fix DRK" threads are just making this thread non-existent proves that the devs really screwed up DRK rework for Shadowbringers... also people need to put the "fix DRK"feedback stuff into this thread rather than making 5-10 different threads...

NA doesn't operate like JP. Instead of consolidation, we just flood the forums with all these threads.

[TouchandFeel]

Based on the media tour skill set, it's easy to see DRK becomes a 1 combo job that throw a oGCD to don't overcap MP and have all his oGCD simplified aca carve and spit and abyssal drain substituting dark passenger and salted heart.

DRK's one combo situation is virtually the same as WAR and PLD, the only real difference being that DRK has to push one additional button for an oGCD ability (Edge/Flood) every ~30s as opposed to hitting one different button ~20s (Goring) for PLD or ~30s (Storm's Eye) for WAR. Seriously, this whole "only one combo" complaint for DRK is blown way out of proportion and misses how extremely similar the setup is between the tanks.

Then we have the gauge mechanic with its a clear copy paste of WAR gauge mechanic, 90s recast delirium the same of inner release, bloodspiller it's just fell cleave and Quietus it's just decimate working exactly the same, all the flow of DRK around his gauge have been removed and it's exactly the same as the WAR with the exception WAR have direct hit/crits and DRK gain a bit of MP.

WAR and DRK both got their gauges at the same time, so it's a stretch to say that one is an obvious copy of the other. Who is to say that WAR didn't copy DRK's gauge or that the gauge idea was designed independently and then applied to both? One could argue that the gauges are basically just variations on the stack mechanic that rage used but then again the way MP worked was pretty much the same there with a stack value being the cost of a DA/TBN. Also PLD got a gauge at the same time as well, so I guess they copied WAR too.
Anyways, resource systems tend to work pretty much the same across the board in games and the gauge system works basically the same for all the tanks; you have a "gauge" that holds a resource with a value between 0 and 100, you can spend resources to use abilities which almost all of cost 50 gauge, you gain gauge from other actions like combos. Even the GNB cartridges is basically the same, just replace a cartridge with 50 gauge and there you go, pretty much the same as the others.

Yes, the new Delirium is very similar to Inner Release, but giving DRK a burst window ability like WAR was literally one of the most requested things in ShB, so ... we got what we asked for in the most literal sense. Also the differences between the abilities, DH-crits for IR and MP for Delirium, while subtle could actually have a pretty big effect on how they affect the way the kits play seeing as how the gains for one are an all in one smash with WAR and with DRK are building up resources that could potentially give extra dps or defenses immediately or could be held on to for a more opportune time to use them. In addition, exact side-by-side comparisons of the dps of specific abilities is pointless when it is the dps potential of the entire kit that matters.

As for Bloodspiller and Quietus, well the other tank jobs also have big hard hitting single-target and AoE abilities that cost resources to use, it's not like they are unique to DRK and WAR and therefore DRK must have copied it from WAR.

Outside of that DRK don't have anything, it's become the most simple tank and the only deep the job will have will be TBN and his potential 500p waste Compared to WAR and PLD that have more combos, extra mechanics like infuriate and the new buffed fell cleaves and the new finish move on requiem cast with PLD apart of other stuff

Yes I consider DRK a poor copy of WAR in literally 50% of his gameplay and the other half its just extreme simple to manage.

Honestly if you feel that DRK "don't have anything" you really need to look again and try to see the details below the surface. With what we have been presented it will likely not be "the most simple tank" and could very much end up actually being the most complex and difficult to optimize of all the tanks thanks to a more fluid and complex resource system than the other tanks, multiple levels and cycles of burst rotations that would need to be carefully timed and managed and having to juggle defense and offense in a way no other tank has to due to the TBN-->Dark Arts-->Edge/Flood-->Darkside interactions. I've touched on many of these aspects of complexity with DRK in other threads and I really don't feel like repeating them all here since each one is rather long, but I went into decent detail about how intricate many of these interactions actually are. I don't know if you and others didn't read them, ignored them or simply didn't understand them but they are available for reading and scrutinizing, which I welcome.



Look, I really like DRK, it's my favorite conceptually of the tanks so far and I really really really want it to be awesome and fun. I think I have over time on these forums shown that I care about DRK and how it plays.
With that being said I am really starting to find some of the complaints regarding what has been shown of the 5.0 DRK to be hyperbolic hysterics based on snap judgments gained from incomplete and fairly limited understandings of how the job and it's kit actually work. People are taking a quick glance at things, seeing one thing that doesn't make immediate sense to them and start crying foul instead of trying to take a closer look and figure out what is actually going on that may not be apparent on the surface.
I'll admit that I too likely don't have anywhere near a full understanding of how DRK will function. I too have some questions, concerns and gripes about parts of the DRK kit. However, at least I am trying to dig in and figure out what the pieces are and how they fit together, especially with the parts that I initially thought underwhelming or subpar, instead of just jumping to conclusions and emotionally reacting.

Whew ..... sorry for the rant but seriously all; calm down, slow your roll and start using your head to figure things out instead of relying on your gut to dictate reality.

Oh, and calling the devs or their work lazy is really uncalled for especially when it could just be a case of you not understanding their design.

[Lyth]

I don't think that the feedback in this thread should come as a surprise.

During the Stormblood Media Tour, people were a bit skeptical of the new actions. Delirium was a neat idea, but was fairly underwhelming for its cooldown duration. Bloodspiller and Quietus were nice, but they were functionally weaker versions of Fell Cleave and Decimate, released to us an expansion after WAR got them (and moved on). It was a series of hand-me-downs.

We were worried, but we said that we'd give it a shot. You didn't play DRK to be the most powerful tank, after all. You played it because it was interesting on a technical level, and people respected you for being good at it.

After the full release of information from the tour, the community looked at potencies. PLD was clearly ahead, with WAR in second, marginally ahead of DRK. A number of DRK abilities, including Dark Passenger, were hit with a series of nerfs. The numbers aren't final, most of us said. Let's play it, and see what happens. I was one of them.

At this time, WHMs were unhappy with their gauge system (rightfully so), and actually managed to get a bit of feedback before launch, if I remember correctly. We weren't in a rush, though. If there's a problem, they'll fix it after.

Then they released the final patch notes. The nerfs to our old skills were even worse than they were in the Media Tour version. We played it. People weren't happy with it. But perhaps that was part of changing things up, and giving PLD a chance to shine. Both WAR and DRK were in the backseat, but interestingly, their dps during the launch Ex Primals was the closest that it's ever been (about 50 dps).

And then the community responses started. There was a flood of feedback about WAR. WAR was clearly hard done by. It's the "hardest" job, after all. And DRK? No, that's not important. DRK is 1-2-3 easy. Most of this was regurgitated comments from Xeno, from players who didn't really understand either job all that well. So you couldn't even say that you were playing DRK for the technical mastery of it. It wasn't until months later, when the broader playerbase had the chance to try out both DRK and Ungabunga for themselves, that people started to realise from where Xeno was talking out of.

The end result? Well, WAR got fixed in a hurry, and then some. And DRK? Well, it was about 9 months before the development team even acknowledged that there was a problem. There were quite a few large feedback threads that got a lot of attention. Syz tried. Chrono tried. There were some fantastic efforts that got a lot of community attention. But it was like talking to a wall.

I think it was only after the community collectively upvoted one of the Q+A questions on DRK into the stratosphere (in part due to some coordinated effort through reddit) that the idea that something bad had happened even permeated the devs consciousness. That's what actually gave us the leverage to push for the 4.3 changes.

That's a long time to wait for a response. And a whole lot of work.

We don't want to repeat this all again in Shadowbringers. But it's starting. Again.

The starting point for change is to acknowledge that there's a problem.