Prelim 5.0 SMN Feedback & how the rework is going against improved downtime design

[Dyvid]

Wow. I hadn't considered some of these scenarios and this looks worrying. I was around when Stormblood's first-round of tooltips were released, but I don't recall how changed they were from the media tour build to the live version. Is it likely that they'll even be able to address these concerns in time for release?

It might have minor changes like potency and timers but they are going to wait until we get our hands on the jobs and play it before making bigger changes. You can look at the 4.0 patch note history. 4.1 is when we saw big changes.

[Shurrikhan]

Wow. I hadn't considered some of these scenarios and this looks worrying. I was around when Stormblood's first-round of tooltips were released, but I don't recall how changed they were from the media tour build to the live version. Is it likely that they'll even be able to address these concerns in time for release?

Not to sound snarky, but what are the developers thinking when they're working on Summoner..? Are there any other jobs with these sort of pre-pull oddities or glaring issues?

Pretty much just Monks, SMN, SCH, and AST, actually. Ninja averted the issue via Hide. Warrior... well, Infuriate was already limited to being usable only in combat.

The sad thing is they could increase convenience in pre-pull by increasing convenience overall rather than by... decreasing convenience in all other areas.

Have SCHs and SMNs simply spawn in with Aetherflow filled.
Either give Draw a 5-second cooldown until combat starts or a card is actually used, or allow Draw to continue recharging in the background even when a card is already drawn and have AST (re)spawn in with a card at the ready.
Have Monks simply (re)spawn in with all 5 stacks of Chakra. Have Form Shift allow extended access to one further form, rather than merely cycling forms outright, and have it passively apply in the background when out of combat until you have access (after 2-3 GCDs) to all forms.

Likewise, get rid of the in-combat requirement on Meditate and Infuriate, but make rage generated by either source fade when out of combat at a rate of 5 gauge per 5 seconds after the first 10 seconds from having left combat. (In this way, they can't actually generate any resource for pre-pull.)

Done.

[Nemekh]

We discussed for the longest time how the game's instance manager could assign gauge variables on reset/zoning in. It did so for Polyglot after the change, so it could have given e.g. ACN jobs the variable for 3/3 aetherflow stacks on a reset. It's something I was really keen on seeing for a more natural progression for what we were familiar with. Instead, the current approach of systems is more stifling as if they are designing themselves into a corner.

[Kabooa]

We discussed for the longest time how the game's instance manager could assign gauge variables on reset/zoning in. It did so for Polyglot after the change, so it could have given e.g. ACN jobs the variable for 3/3 aetherflow stacks on a reset. It's something I was really keen on seeing for a more natural progression for what we were familiar with. Instead, the current approach of systems is more stifling as if they are designing themselves into a corner.

I'm generally of the opinion that all jobs should just start at 0.

[Nemekh]

I'm generally of the opinion that all jobs should just start at 0.

If the designs had that in mind consistently with all jobs from the onset, it'd definitely be a different world. I'd like to think with a healthier design space in mind. Various restrictions and decisions tend to come off as quite arbitrary between jobs.

[Vulcwen]

I'm still writing a more extensive post about the 5.0 changes and about design in general, but I want to point out my opinion about these pre-pull things.

I think pre-pull preparation is fine if limited to a short time. This can be achieved by just making resources reset after being out of combat for 30s (or after using the respective skill). This however has a side effect on dungeon content in that players are encouraged to stay in action, you'd not want your combat status to drop for more than 30s, although there would be ways to keep things moving forward, and would in my opinion provide a decent flow to dungeon combat. Certain stacking resources (cough 5.0 ruin 4 cough) that have a 30s or shorter cooldown that can be used out of combat and without an enemy target might still be an issue, and would probably need to be changed to just not give the resource when used out of combat.

Of course, this approach is probably a bit too much, but in line with this, I'd suggest two changes to limit pre-pull memes:
- If DWT expires out of combat it would not grant dreadwyrm aether.
- Using Egi-Assaults out of combat would not grant R4 procs.

[Zionite]

Reintroducing Aetherflow for non-damage stack generation that like the Scholar ability can only be used in combat

What ability is this?

[Nemekh]

SCH in 5.0 gains the Aetherflow action at Lv. 45 (you can see it here in the bottom right of the "Utility" section) and can only be used in combat to gain 3 Aetherflow stacks.

[Renryuu]

So wait... does this mean Summoner is broken? Aw man, just when I was finally accepting myself as a Smn main and actually referring to Smn as my main instead of my default and now it gets broken.

Well I guess there is Mch, but apparently that plays worse now than the SB version so that may also be out of the question. I really don't wanna end up going back to my indecisive, swapping jobs every 2 seconds self. x_X

[CecMiller]

Summoner isn't broken. Don't get the wrong idea.

It just requires certain mechanical changes to be more in line with the comments Yoshida made. Specifically, "No more waiting for SMN pre-pull" applied to both DWT and Ruin 4 Stacking. Futher, in my view at least, to remedy the downtime situation of being unable to refresh AF Stacks without a target - We previously could do so without issue and other jobs took a step forward in terms of pooling their resources during downtime (Polygot/Kassatsu) or keeping their strength through phases (GL4). It's just somewhere along the line, Summoner lost this ability. It's not as important for the cycle as it was before, but it is still a regression from the 4.x Summoner. Further DWT/FBT are now inflexible when compared to the 4.x iteration (FBT being the DWT post bahamut in 4.x) is another thing I don't personally like.

It will still be a strong, and fun, class to play, but those issues need addressing. It's not going to be "broken" or "bad". You should still main it in 5.0 if you want to!