Upper tiers of an action (such as Fire II and Fire III) will be abolished.....

[Stimpack]

Tier Magic has always been a Final Fantasy trademark

I would also like to point this out!

[Estellios]

We still have Fire/Fira/Firaga, etc, dealing different amounts of damage, so there are still tiers, they are just usable as you level up instead of dumping the low tiers. In fact this system is more FF tradition since it doesn't give us spells with names like Curaga II, Fire III, etc.

[Betelgeuzah]

My point is that it is not merely "fluff" there's a strategy to having tiered spells.

No strategy elements were lost due to this change, and no strategy elements would have been lost were the same done to every FF in existence. That is more telling than whatever your point might be. In practice fluff is fluff and now it is where it belongs, in the failed game design-bin of theory that didn't meet practice-land.

Options just for the sake of having options regardless of whether there is any substance to them are meaningless options and overcomplicate as well as suffocate the game for no proper reasons whatsoever. Just because you don't have to put them in your action bar does not justify their existence. When players have to dig through piles of 'cool in concept, useless in practice' actions to find the meaningful ones they become more of a hindrance than just a useless addition that has no reason to be there.

I assume, and I can't be the only one, that they're doing this to streamline gameplay for console users. You might enjoy it, but I'm not a big fan of having things dumbed-down for me.

Streamlining useless, meaningless, overcomplicated-for-no-reason-but-to-be-overcomplicated features removes nothing but the aforementioned traits from the game. Most games in existence, regardless of genre or platform know better than to add shit to the game that does nothing but annoy at best. If they don't contribute to gameplay, they have no reason to be there. Nothing of value has been lost, and proper game design has won over the shackles of "FF staples" once again.

Writing this almost brought a tear to my eye. I love you Yoshida. Not in a gay way, but in a manly Roegadyn way.

[Stimpack]

No strategy elements were lost due to this change, and no strategy elements would have been lost were the same done to every FF in existence. That is more telling than whatever your point might be. In practice fluff is fluff and now it is where it belongs, in the failed game design-bin of theory that didn't meet practice-land.

Options just for the sake of having options regardless of whether there is any substance to them are meaningless options and overcomplicate as well as suffocate the game for no proper reasons whatsoever. Just because you don't have to put them in your action bar does not justify their existence. When players have to dig through piles of 'cool in concept, useless in practice' actions to find the meaningful ones they become more of a hindrance than just a useless addition that has no reason to be there.



Streamlining useless, meaningless, overcomplicated-for-no-reason-but-to-be-overcomplicated features removes nothing but the aforementioned traits from the game. Most games in existence, regardless of genre or platform know better than to add shit to the game that does nothing but annoy at best. If they don't contribute to gameplay, they have no reason to be there. Nothing of value has been lost, and proper game design has won over the shackles of "FF staples" once again.

Writing this almost brought a tear to my eye. I love you Yoshida. Not in a gay way, but in a manly Roegadyn way.

While you may have found them to be useless, I've always found a place for all of my tiered cure spells. I never found FFXI's spell mechanics to be complicated. It seems a tried and true system that I, for one, enjoyed. I can't quite grasp the concept of "Well, it's useless to me so it shouldn't exist.", I think that's an opinion and that options should be given. I don't know how tiered spells have somehow hindered your gaming experience, but if you could provide some detail into that I would appreciate it.

At the moment, you're just not convincing me. Your argument as to why tiered spells should not exist boils down to over-complication and usefulness. Complexity is more a matter of opinion. I might struggle greatly with something that you can do with relative ease. As for usefulness, I may favor a tiered spell that you'd rarely ever bother with.

My argument is that what I'm asking does not interfere with what you're asking. For instance, you could just as easily continue using Cure III in place of the scaled cure we know now. You could disregard Cure, and Cure II completely and I don't quite see how it would complicate life for you.

[Betelgeuzah]

While you may have found them to be useless

It's not an opinion. You can think and do whatever you want, in reality there is no strategy in any of it. In reality there are good choices and bad choices. Only good choices must prevail- bad choices have no function but to overcomplicate unnecessarily.

Proper game design isn't dictated by someone's subjective made-up reality where imaginary strategic choices exist or ancient principles based on poor design choices from the past being put on a pedestal.

Spoiler: game design has come a long way since the 90's. What was acceptable back then is irreversibly flawed today.

Complexity is not a matter of opinion. If it adds nothing, it is useless. If it hinders the player, or confuses him at the same time, it is bad for the game. Whether there is real strategy or whether it is merely the mindset of "I will keep using all of my actions even though 3/4th of them make no difference in gameplay in 99% of the cases" is not a matter off opinion. It either has an impact or it doesn't, regardless of what the person in question thinks of it.

[Stimpack]

Saying whether something is useless or not is entirely subjective. Our conversation alone is proof of that. I don't quite understand why you wish to remain ignorant of the fact that lower tiered spells do serve a purpose. Topping off an ally's HP with a basic Cure will cease to exist with this scaling system. A tiered system is anything but complicated. If anything, it beckons users to learn their class and properly strategize.

I'm sorry, but I do not believe that your way is somehow superior. Can you honestly sit there and say that people are confused by the tier system? I'm surprised FFXI even had a player-base, considering the apparently arduous learning curve.

I've pointed out that the tier system does add something to the game. Again, I say that your argument is based upon usefulness and complexity, and I've stood to reason against both. The tier system is not complicated, and it is useful.

From what you've said thus far, it stands to reason that we completely eliminate all spells in favor of one. Why not just roll up all of the status ailments, hp/mp recovery, damage mitigation, and elemental damage into one? It's quite practical, really. *I do hope that you've picked up on the sarcasm*

[Stimpack]

I'd also just like to say that I'm rather surprised by the community response here. In FFXI, even at the max level, every WHM I knew used each cure spell in their arsenal. It seems to me that we're going to end up using a bastardized version where the player is no longer forced to choose which spell to use in what situation (which, and I'm sorry to say, is strategy) and instead is given a standard cure button with which to smash.

It also occurs to me that you might be viewing all of this in terms of end-game. Often times I had to run a lower-leveled friend through a dungeon, or what-have-you, and it was advantageous to use a basic Cure rather than something like a Cure III.

Apparently I'm the odd man out with this mentality. Usher in the new-age, if you will, and explain to me how much better it is. Explain how you're helping me by making my life easier while I, in my old age, play with sticks in the dirt. I'll just sit here shaking my head, and remembering how things used to be.

[Estellios]

Never used anything below Cure III in FF11 except to wake up sleeping people and I never used Cure IV because that crap was too much hate and inefficient, so only III and V got any use from me. You pretty much get this effect when you have Cure and Cura in FF14. Sleeping people here can be woke up with Cure but it costs the normal amount of MP which IMO is much better balanced and gives more weight to the upcoming Esuna and Alchemist potions that cure Sleep. Using a lower tier Cure to top off someone's HP is not needed at all when they can put their weapon away and recover that HP in like 5 seconds.

Play around with your Conjurer some more and open your mind to the new system and try adapting to it instead of trying to fit it into an old game's mechanics. I'm finding this game a lot more fun and interesting to play healer compared to years of FF11, and one member of my LS actually tried out CNJ and took it to 50 because he ended up enjoying it so much when he was never a healer in a MMO before. The strategy for healing in this game is not "use the least amount of MP possible" but "use your crazy potent MP abilities intelligently to keep yourself going". The strategy is shifted elsewhere, but it is still there. As the class levels up and gets more complex you will see.

[Forerunner]

a low level BLM to cast the same spell effects as max level BLM. period.

Yes, because Thunder, Thundara and Thundaga all look visually the same, and not like a 3 tiered spell, and when the 4th tier spell arrives from the BLM spell list, it won't be an impressive BURST of lightning. inb4 Thundaja.

/sarcasm off

/thread

[Stimpack]

I still don't quite see the point in removing the tiers, though. You may have only gotten use out of III/V, but I still say that there were situations in which every cure could be utilized. If the point of taking them out was to reduce clutter, then I think that's an absolutely ridiculous claim.

All my CNJ has really had to do so far is nuke. I'm sure that's not how the entire experience will go, but hopefully they adjust things. Personally, I don't care for the "everyone can heal" approach. I think that changes things so that CNJs aren't technically full-time healers. I digress, I promise you that I am trying to keep an open mind, but no one has been able to give me a valid reason as to why tier spells were removed so far. That's what I'm waiting for.

Don't get me wrong. I'm still going to play, and I know that I will get used to the new system, but I really want to argue against this change.