Do you feel empathy towards the Warriors of Darkness?

[Kalise]

They went to that extreme because the Darkness required to bring any kind of balance back to their annihilated home was extreme. You are comparing our in-game world, one with a balance slightly tipped in Hyde's favour, to one that was utterly destroyed thanks to Hyde's champions outright dominating Zodiark entirely to the point where she was in sole power.

No, I'm not comparing thier world to ours.

I'm comparing THEIR WORLD to THEIR WORLD.

Shadowbringers is literally us going to the FIRST and fixing it by creating Darkness

I'm not talking about how we're fixing the Source. Which, incidentally, is in a precarious situation where it's close to being tipped to far in EITHER direction.

I'm talking about the whole fucking point of the expansion is to become WoD's on the First, to create Darkness on the First, to fix the First.

Thus, when the entire point of the expansion is about us going to the First, to create Darkness on the First, to fix the First... Then that should suggest that the "WoD's" MUST have had the same opportunity to also create Darkness on the First and fix the First.

Which is exactly what they deigned to do.

No it isn't. Not even close.

They weren't trying to create Darkness on the First. They weren't trying to fix the First. They were trying to create Darkness on the Source, with the sole purpose to cause a Calamity so that the First would be rejoined.

Not entirely, but that isn't the point. The point is that having won for her, they were shunned anyway as if they were inconsequential. They had no options regarding the light, only darkness. You should understand this seeing as your grief is with the notion that they might have had alternatives. They clearly didn't. No conventional means, and no treating with light, so they treated with Darkness as the last resort.

You're missing the point.

The issue I have isn't that they started to use Darkness. The issue I have is that instead of doing the logical thing, of using Darkness to attempt to FIX THEIR WORLD. They instead were using Darkness to DESTROY THEIR WORLD and at the same time murder a bunch of people on the Source.

Also "Shunned away"? Do you have any evidence of that? Since, as far as I'm aware, they never mentioned being "Shunned away" by Hydaelyn. They only mentioned that she didn't answer them and didn't magically fix all their problems so they got angry and resentful.

Hello entire WoD questline, with Arbert himself asking the WoL to seek a better fate after all the revelations of what happens when Warriors of L/D serve a side wholesale and destroy their home.

Except that the WoD questline doesn't specifically state that our world is in trouble. In fact, Mr CrystalTowerGuy suggests that we're not even in a similar state of just having an overabundance of Light due to our actions. Since he hints that even if the Garleans win (Thus causing Darkness) that will also lead to oblivion (Likely a Flood of Darkness)

Which is not at all comparable to what happened to the WoD's where their constant killing of Primals ended up causing an overabundance of Light which then resulted in the Flood of Light.

What is being suggested on our world is that our world is very high in Darkness, thanks to the actions of the Garleans and Ascians, but we're also being affected by a lot of Light which is leaking from the First into the Source. Meaning that we're close to a Flood of Darkness by what is happening on our world, but we can't go and reverse that because the First is giving us a bunch of Light.

Which is why we have to go and fix the First, so that we can stop it leaking a ton of Light into our world and then go beat up the Garleans and Ascians to reduce the Darkness with impunity.

These aren't characters who go from Evil McEvil and do a 180. The tragedy is that they were those heroes, like us, rewarded with nothing but doom for doing the right thing, and that the only conceivable option they had left was to go against that entirely and serve the dark, not even for a reward, but in the hopes that their normality would return.

Again, go back and watch the WoD scenes again. Their purpose is NOT TO FIX ANYTHING. It's merely to cause a Rejoining to DESTROY THEIR WORLD but allow people on it to enter the Aethereal Sea.

They are Evil because they're doing Evil things for the sake of Evil, because they're angry that Hydaelyn didn't come and fix all of their problems, didn't answer their calls and didn't pop in to say "Careful with how much Light you're making".

Them becoming "WoD's" doesn't necessarily have to affect their personality. Just like how we're becoming "WoD's" doesn't stop us from being heroic, our goal is still to save an entire world (In fact, we're trying to save 2 worlds). We're not suddenly going to become sadists and go around killing innocents on the First because we can.

That's the thing with the WoD's. They become so bitter about how Hydaelyn won't fix all their problems, that they seemingly immediately jump at the chance to serve the Ascians and go try to cause a Calamity on the Source, even relishing the notion of being able to go fight and kill the WoL on the Source.

They go from being "Heroes" to being full on Evil. That no amount of tragic backstory will alleviate unless it's shown that they're doing these evil things reluctantly as a very last resort.

Like, sure, the situation of the First can cause empathy and I do empathize with literally every single person on the First, except for these 5 WoD's. Since, these 5 WoD's are depicted as being complete evil through and through, with not a single shred of decency in their entire body.

[Bright-Flower]

We're going to become WODs an dbring balance to their world.

This doesn't mean they would know how to do that on their own. They likely became WODs through Elidibus' influence, and Elidibus wants to cause rejoinings. He isn't going to help them save their world when he can use them to rejoin their world. We simply don't know enough about the WODs to assume that whatever we end up doing, is something they would have known to do. We don't even know how WE are going to do it yet. To them, they likely didn't know of any other option and destroying their world to at least send the souls of its people back to the life stream was the lesser of two evils compared to letting the flood completely overtake it. Just because restoring balance is possible doesn't neccisarily mean they were in a position to achieve it. Even if only from lack of knowledge.

[Berethos]

Except that the WoD questline doesn't specifically state that our world is in trouble. In fact, Mr CrystalTowerGuy suggests that we're not even in a similar state of just having an overabundance of Light due to our actions. Since he hints that even if the Garleans win (Thus causing Darkness) that will also lead to oblivion (Likely a Flood of Darkness)

Wrong.

He's saying that if we lose, the Source loses its Warrior of Light, and heads down the path toward a Calamity the way it would have had we never stepped in - basically, the way it has happened seven times now.

But if we win, we're tipping the balance too far in the other direction, and it's why Elidibus now wants us dead whereas before he was content to let us do what we were doing as it added to the chaos.

Unless you want to suggest that us so frequently winning against the Darkness, similar to the way those on the First did, is somehow, magically, creating an overabundance of Darkness...which clearly doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, the idea that they are depicted as evil through and through is directly contradicted by the following scene:

One Life for One World, Cutscene #3 and 4 - You do see anger, but you also see their sorrow at their situation, and their desperation based on the belief that they are responsible for bringing their world to the edge of destruction and are thus responsible for saving it. Unlike the other groups that belief they are responsible for saving the world, such as Garlemald, this isn't a case of them thinking they are the strongest or the best or the "true saviors" but rather the belief that they are responsible for fixing the problem they caused in the first place. Not exactly something those who are evil would do. Hell, in that scene you can even see the conflict in Arbert's eyes. This is not a path he wanted to take, and it clearly weighs heavily on him.

Those who are evil (especially in a Final Fantasy game) tend to delight in actions such as these, not clearly feel pain and sorrow at their current path.

Misguided? Absolutely. Desperate? Clearly. Pained, sorrowful, regretful, angry? Check, check, check, check.

There isn't a shred of evidence in the game that they are evil through and through.

[YianKutku]

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

The Warriors of Darkness were willing to kill off everyone still living on the First, just so that the people on the shard in general had a chance of being reborn somehow. Meanwhile, the lives of the people on the Source who were going to die in great pain and suffering during the resultant Calamity were not even taken into consideration. And since we are told that the Crystarium was built some time ago, and consists of the people who are still continuing to fight for the salvation of the First, without attempting to kill millions of others in a different dimension, I don't know why Arbert and co were so convinced that theirs was the only way.

The Warriors of Darkness were the Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (Possibly While Hard). Given how gleeful they were about trying to kill Alisaie, I could easily believe that they jumped right into Elidibus's plans in a sort of attempt to be Noble Martyrs, when a cursory examination of their actions (as opposed to whatever motivations they claimed to have) would show that it's all a selfish desire to lash out against the Source for daring to exist and survive.

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

[RopeDrink]

Empathy does not require agreement. Nobody is saying what the WoD's did was fine or that we're agreeing with their actions. If you mean in terms of us now becoming WoD's ourselves now, it won't be the same thing as we have better knowledge of it now compared to the WoD's, who's only source of any kind of help came from Elidibus/Darkness.

As for hurting Hydaelyn, there isn't a single impression of this given in any point of the WoD questline, other than Arbert's bitter response when Minfilia arrives at the behest of both groups and their bounty of light, having never heeded them when they actually needed it. Until that point, they explained their realization of the Hyde/Zodi balance, explained why they are doing what they're doing, and most of all, simply reinforcing how unwavering they are in achieving that goal. There was no mention of any kind of desire to put the hurt on Hydae specifically, only that they wanted to cause chaos and destruction enough to achieve their goal. "Killing primals, tormenting beastmen, hastening the birth of a new god... It's all a bit much isn't it? And frankly we don't have the leisure to do it... But killing the Warrior of Light on the other hand... That would soon plunge Eorzea into chaos!"

As far as I remember, Hyde is only mentioned once alongside Zodiark. This isn't a goal bourne of bitterness. Every single moment of dialogue referring to what befell their shard is one of sorrow and a desire to save it, NOT of vengeance of any kind.

[Iscah]

I don't have time for a long reply, but I just wanted to point out that the situation on the First is different now to when the other Warriors were trying to save it, due to Minfilia's intervention in halting the flood.

This wasn't possible earlier, as Hydaelyn was severely weakened and unable to intervene (which the Warriors would have seen as abandonment) - but Urianger's scheme to bring the six crystal-bearers together has restored some of Her power, enough to send Minfilia to act on the First.

We also, for whatever reason, apparently have Enigma's assistance where they did not.

[YianKutku]

Empathy does not require agreement. Nobody is saying what the WoD's did was fine or that we're agreeing with their actions. If you mean in terms of us now becoming WoD's ourselves now, it won't be the same thing as we have better knowledge of it now compared to the WoD's, who's only source of any kind of help came from Elidibus/Darkness.

As for hurting Hydaelyn, there isn't a single impression of this given in any point of the WoD questline, other than Arbert's bitter response when Minfilia arrives at the behest of both groups and their bounty of light, having never heeded them when they actually needed it. Until that point, they explained their realization of the Hyde/Zodi balance, explained why they are doing what they're doing, and most of all, simply reinforcing how unwavering they are in achieving that goal. There was no mention of any kind of desire to put the hurt on Hydae specifically, only that they wanted to cause chaos and destruction enough to achieve their goal. "Killing primals, tormenting beastmen, hastening the birth of a new god... It's all a bit much isn't it? And frankly we don't have the leisure to do it... But killing the Warrior of Light on the other hand... That would soon plunge Eorzea into chaos!"

As far as I remember, Hyde is only mentioned once alongside Zodiark. This isn't a goal bourne of bitterness. Every single moment of dialogue referring to what befell their shard is one of sorrow and a desire to save it, NOT of vengeance of any kind.

As mentioned, it's not what they said, but what they did. Arbert jumped straight into one of the more extreme solutions available, simply because an Ascian offered it to him. He didn't even bother telling us why he was doing all of this until it was narratively convenient for the story to suddenly attempt to make the Warriors of Darkness seem justified. And even after they explained their motivations (when you stop the Garuda summoning and they taunt you about them trying to kill Alisaie), they never bothered trying to negotiate. Just "your world needs to fall into chaos, our world needs to die, and that's the way of it".

He also didn't bother explaining, or even mentioning, why he helped retrieve the Eyes of Nidhogg for Elidibus, even after everything was decided and done.

So no, I don't think the Warriors of Darkness are deserving of empathy, except possibly some mild pity for how pointlessly fanatical they are about their chosen path. Not once have their actions (or their words, for that matter) shown that they had any doubt that they could be wrong.

[Bright-Flower]

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

The Warriors of Darkness were willing to kill off everyone still living on the First, just so that the people on the shard in general had a chance of being reborn somehow. Meanwhile, the lives of the people on the Source who were going to die in great pain and suffering during the resultant Calamity were not even taken into consideration. And since we are told that the Crystarium was built some time ago, and consists of the people who are still continuing to fight for the salvation of the First, without attempting to kill millions of others in a different dimension, I don't know why Arbert and co were so convinced that theirs was the only way.

The Warriors of Darkness were the Hard Men Making Hard Decisions (Possibly While Hard). Given how gleeful they were about trying to kill Alisaie, I could easily believe that they jumped right into Elidibus's plans in a sort of attempt to be Noble Martyrs, when a cursory examination of their actions (as opposed to whatever motivations they claimed to have) would show that it's all a selfish desire to lash out against the Source for daring to exist and survive.

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

It's not that we think the WOD's were RIGHT to do what they did, but more we can empathize with their motive, trying to save the souls of THEIR world from the flood of light, and so far as they knew, they had only this one option. Even Uriangr didn't tell them of another option he was playing both sides, and I doubt ELidibus was giving them any options that didn't end with his own goals furthering with a rejoining.

The difference between them and Varis is largely motive. They're trying to save the souls of their world, and know they have to do something messed up to do it, but press on. They even gave up their own lives in order to transfer to the First. It's smaller in scale, but simlar to the Vulture in spiderman homecoming. He' wrong to sell alien technology to black market criminals, but the way he got screwed over you can see why he would go that path.

I think the lead up to the big confrontation was sloppily handled, but I did feel for them in 3.4 itself when everything came out.

[Cilia]

Varis: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: That's obviously crazy, he must be possessed by an Ascian or something.

Warriors of Darkness: I am going to bring about the Rejoining, killing millions in the process, and ending the existence of at least one shard.

FFXIV playerbase: Wow, they really have a point, we should be following their lead.

[...]

It was never about saving the First. It was all about hurting Hydaelyn.

The difference is in the details, namely:

Warriors of Darkness: Willing to cause a Calamity to Rejoin their Shard to the Source before it's erased from existence entirely out of blind desperation.

Varis: Willing to cause all the Rejoinings so he can create a "perfect master race," kill the Ascians, and be the King of Everything put the reins of history back in the hands of man.

The death and destruction Varis is attempting is sixfold greater than what the Warriors of Darkness would have caused, and driven by his ego as much as it is a desire to do something (ostensibly) good (if not moreso).

The Warriors of Darkness just wanted to preserve something, anything, of their world - Minfilia going over there stopped or slowed it, but before that it was just a matter of time before Norvrandt disappeared into nothingness and they didn't know how much time they had left. There's obviously some bitterness toward Hydaelyn there, but their main goal doesn't seem to have been hurting Hydaelyn for its own sake - it was just a means to an end. I look at their situation a lot like the Gaia / Terra dynamic from IX, except instead of filtering out the Source's souls and replacing them with the First's so the Source would eventually become the First in all but name (as Terra tried to do to Gaia in IX), they just wanted to inject their own world's souls into the Source's lifestream to live on in spirit. Problem is that would require causing a Calamity... though the specifics on it are fuzzy. (How would they choose which Shard was Rejoined? Were the people of Norvrandt OK with this? Etc.)

Both are highly objectionable courses of action, but the Warriors of Darkness' blind desperation is much more understandable than Varis' delusions of grandeur (the specifics of which are also quite fuzzy, but that's another matter).

[Theodric]

Varis may very well be possessed by Solus, thus everything he supposedly said can be taken with a hefty pinch of salt. That he has frequently been shown to be frustrated with the Ascians makes it unlikely that he would suddenly go along with doing exactly what they desired. He has also been shown to be extremely muted in his emotions so far with the deranged smile at the end of Stormblood being very similar to that of Solus' own. In short, it could go either way.

The Warriors of Darkness, meanwhile, are also not as cut and dry in their situation. That we did not sit down and drink tea with them to work out their exact motivations is largely irrelevant - they were forced into unpleasant circumstances and it has now been confirmed that we will see more of them during Shadowbringers. I do not doubt that it will shed more light (heh...) on their circumstances and motivations.

Ultimately there are plenty of characters who we do not come to fully understand until much later in the game. Arenvald and Ilberd are but two examples.