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  1. #1
    Player
    Ryaz's Avatar
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    Jun 2015
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    Mist Ward 21, Plot 45
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    1,845
    Character
    Ryaz Darksbane
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    I can understand where the devs were coming from with this skill. I just don't agree with it's implementation and feel they haven't learned anything from abilities like Tornado Kick. Meditate was fine as it for downtime because Samurai never really suffered from it. We don't lose Kenki like Monk lost GL stacks. The only thing we had to worry about was buffs falling off.

    All through SB, people complained of Third Eye and Seigan (as well as Merciful Eyes which is now useless again due to enmity reducer being removed). Seigan is one of the few skills that Samurai has that helps separate good players from great players- namely being able to predict incoming damage and use it for a potency gain. The only issue is that the gain in potency over Shinten is minuscule. This was the perfect opportunity to remedy that by having Seigan potentially become something people actively want to use, like having it combo into Shoha or build stacks that allow you to unleash Shoha later. It would reward skilled play much more and keep the skill relevant throughout the fight instead of being highly situational (and extremely low potency for the amount of times you'll actually use it). It just feels like a missed opportunity to make a somewhat lackluster and situational skill a lot better and instead we now have two lackkuster and situational skills.

    Now I'm not saying theres no skill in using Meditate because you have to be good to find those downtime to weave it a stack or two in some fights. But you really are at the mercy of the fight mechanics. If theres no downtime, the skill is useless.

    I'm just hoping that they either change it, or if they plan on keeping it the way it is, then the potency is increased quite a bit. Everything is still subjected to change, so I'll keep hoping.
    (5)

  2. #2
    Player
    Daralii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    3,041
    Character
    Endris Caemwynn
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryaz View Post
    I can understand where the devs were coming from with this skill. I just don't agree with it's implementation and feel they haven't learned anything from abilities like Tornado Kick. Meditate was fine as it for downtime because Samurai never really suffered from it. We don't lose Kenki like Monk lost GL stacks. The only thing we had to worry about was buffs falling off.

    All through SB, people complained of Third Eye and Seigan (as well as Merciful Eyes which is now useless again due to enmity reducer being removed). Seigan is one of the few skills that Samurai has that helps separate good players from great players- namely being able to predict incoming damage and use it for a potency gain. The only issue is that the gain in potency over Shinten is minuscule. This was the perfect opportunity to remedy that by having Seigan potentially become something people actively want to use, like having it combo into Shoha or build stacks that allow you to unleash Shoha later. It would reward skilled play much more and keep the skill relevant throughout the fight instead of being highly situational (and extremely low potency for the amount of times you'll actually use it). It just feels like a missed opportunity to make a somewhat lackluster and situational skill a lot better and instead we now have two lackkuster and situational skills.

    Now I'm not saying theres no skill in using Meditate because you have to be good to find those downtime to weave it a stack or two in some fights. But you really are at the mercy of the fight mechanics. If theres no downtime, the skill is useless.

    I'm just hoping that they either change it, or if they plan on keeping it the way it is, then the potency is increased quite a bit. Everything is still subjected to change, so I'll keep hoping.
    At least with Tornado Kick the GL stacks can be regained fairly quickly every 2 minutes. Considering the Meditation stacks only last for 30 seconds, you'll probably be lucky to get a full strength Shoha on any given boss.
    (3)

  3. #3
    Player
    xxvaynxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    687
    Character
    Oniwori Kiyuromi
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryaz View Post
    I can understand where the devs were coming from with this skill. I just don't agree with it's implementation and feel they haven't learned anything from abilities like Tornado Kick. Meditate was fine as it for downtime because Samurai never really suffered from it. We don't lose Kenki like Monk lost GL stacks. The only thing we had to worry about was buffs falling off.

    All through SB, people complained of Third Eye and Seigan (as well as Merciful Eyes which is now useless again due to enmity reducer being removed). Seigan is one of the few skills that Samurai has that helps separate good players from great players- namely being able to predict incoming damage and use it for a potency gain. The only issue is that the gain in potency over Shinten is minuscule. This was the perfect opportunity to remedy that by having Seigan potentially become something people actively want to use, like having it combo into Shoha or build stacks that allow you to unleash Shoha later. It would reward skilled play much more and keep the skill relevant throughout the fight instead of being highly situational (and extremely low potency for the amount of times you'll actually use it). It just feels like a missed opportunity to make a somewhat lackluster and situational skill a lot better and instead we now have two lackkuster and situational skills.

    Now I'm not saying theres no skill in using Meditate because you have to be good to find those downtime to weave it a stack or two in some fights. But you really are at the mercy of the fight mechanics. If theres no downtime, the skill is useless.

    I'm just hoping that they either change it, or if they plan on keeping it the way it is, then the potency is increased quite a bit. Everything is still subjected to change, so I'll keep hoping.
    Just how I feel, I just don't want a skill like this. You can even use seigan more than shoha.
    (3)

  4. #4
    Player
    Leonus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    677
    Character
    Kenrir Amnis
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Ya'll really out here trying to be Overpowered, at least it seems that way.

    To worried about how it looks than it's purpose. I see it as ( I already was) generating kenki to buff an Iaijutsu, get ready for guren, or use shinten. Now, they reward me a little more for using it during downtime with some more added potency. Is it underwhelming? Sure, but I'm sure most know and would agree that it's just some added potency for doing something people should have already been doing.

    I think it looks cool, if anything I want single target guren's and shoha's animations swapped.

    As long as it makes sense, and I get to enjoy it in endgame content (as I've mailed Sam in XI, and now XIV) and I'm still good at it... I'm happy.
    (0)
    Last edited by Leonus; 06-28-2019 at 06:04 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    xxvaynxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    687
    Character
    Oniwori Kiyuromi
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonus View Post
    Ya'll really out here trying to be Overpowered, at least it seems that way.

    To worried about how it looks than it's purpose. I see it as ( I already was) generating kenki to buff an Iaijutsu, get ready for guren, or use shinten. Now, they reward me a little more for using it during downtime with some more added potency. Is it underwhelming? Sure, but I'm sure most know and would agree that it's just some added potency for doing something people should have already been doing.

    I think it looks cool, if anything I want single target guren's and shoha's animations swapped.

    As long as it makes sense, and I get to enjoy it in endgame content (as I've mailed Sam in XI, and now XIV) and I'm still good at it... I'm happy.
    I'm not actually. If you read most people's comments, its mostly for how the skill works.
    and for how it works its not really that strong and quite weak actually.

    Maybe you're ok with having a skill that you'll hardly use but me and most people here are not.
    I listed every time you can get a full amount of stacks of meditate and you see you're hardly able to get a big hit of it. This skill is weaker than seigan at 2 stacks and seigan is only on a 15sec cooldown while this is a 60sec cooldown.
    And if you didn't know, seigan is such a piss poor dps gain you can just not ever use it as it won't make that much of a difference.

    It also doesn't help this skill relays on Server ticks as well so at times you won't even get 5 stacks if you're unlucky.
    (3)

  6. #6
    Player
    Leonus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    677
    Character
    Kenrir Amnis
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by xxvaynxx View Post
    well...
    That's the thing, you don't need 5 stacks to make it worth it,at least I don't take it that way. Meditate was already worth it for just getting at least a shinten a bit earlier, or having enough kenki to burn guren after downtime if the boss left the arena and you sat at 30 kenki. Where I see shoha becoming worth it, if it doesn't animation lock you, is 3 meditation stacks. You get a "free" shinten, and 200 extra potency from shoha just for meditating. 520 potency at least (without buffs). Shoha costs you nothing but meditation stacks, and you get kenki for meditating anyway.

    It might still be worth it even you're close to being capped on kenki and meditating puts you at 100, but you still get meditation stacks. If I can, at the very least, get 1 shinten out of meditation during downtime where I can do nothing but sit around anyway, it's worth it. I could be wrong, but that's how I take it. I know a few dungeons, where I can get 3 meditation stacks.

    Underwhelming stil,? Absolutely, bit it's still rewarding. Just not soammable like people want it to be.
    (0)
    Last edited by Leonus; 06-28-2019 at 06:42 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    xxvaynxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    687
    Character
    Oniwori Kiyuromi
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonus View Post
    That's the thing, you don't need 5 stacks to make it worth it,at least I don't take it that way. When it becomes meditate was already worth it for just getting a shinten a bit earlier, or having enough kenki to burn guren after downtime if the boss left the arena a d you sat at 30 kenki. Where I see it becomes worth it, if it doesn't animation lock you, is 3 meditation stacks. You get a "free" shinten, and 200 extra potency from shoha just for meditating. 520 potency at least (without buffs).

    It might still be worth it even you're close to being called on kenki and meditating pits you at 100, but you still get meditation stacks. If I can, at the very least, get 1 shinten out of meditation, it's worth it. I could be wrong, but that's how I take it. I know a few dungeons, where I can get 3 meditation stacks.
    I really hate when people say its "free" damage because that can apply to anything but aside that.
    You need at least 4 or 5 stacks of meditate to make it worth it.
    1 stack is a pathetic 50 pot
    2 Stack is 100, lower than your combo starter
    3 stack is 200, weaker than seigan which I already stated that does almost next to nothing to really bump your dps up that much.
    now the 4th stack is where it gets useful, THAT's a free shinten...rather, the old potency of it.

    But getting a 4th stack is just as hard as getting a 5th stack due to server ticks.

    And again you're looking at it from a pretty plan view.
    You get that weak 200 potency every 60secs, a minute.

    and I'm not talking about the meditation skill itself so the point about getting a shinten out it not needed as I'm talking about shoha.

    Also getting a 3 stack on a boss in a dgn is not going gain you much.
    You're looking at potency at face value, you have to see what shoha does at the lower stack over the course of a fight.
    With this being fight dependent it'll be less frequent that even seigan.

    I'll use my os10.

    I got 7 seigan which was 200 at the time, the same pot as 3 stack shoha.
    My overall dps at that fight was 71191.1k and my seigan gave 37.8k, if I were to take away that 37.8k it would be 7081.3. Not too bad right? shoha won't be that bad then right?

    Wrong, realistically; you would NEVER get that many meditates to go up to 3 stacks everytime or even get 7 meditates.
    So Since I'm bad at math I'll use one of my os9 because I got two seigans in there and it gave me a wopping 11.3k out of a 8.125.5 dps overall and you know how many meditates you can even get in os9? One.
    That fight has too much uptime, with fights that much uptime. Shoha is a dead skill.

    Still think the way shoha works is a good skill? or "rewarding"?

    ((if you think its underwhelming why are you defending it? seriously...))
    (7)
    Last edited by xxvaynxx; 06-28-2019 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #8
    Player
    Leonus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    677
    Character
    Kenrir Amnis
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by xxvaynxx View Post
    stuff
    We don't agree, and that's fine. I get it, you won't use it as often as seigan. I'm not comparing it to seigan though, as the only thing I have to do is meditate during downtime and I'm see it as I'm being paid to do that anyway.

    1 stack... I wasted meditate.
    2 stacks.. well I get 100potency to throw and with 5 more kenki (from rotation) I get a 320 + 100 just because.
    3 stacks.. a shinten + 200 shoha
    4 stacks.. 1 attack from 2 shinten + 300 shoha
    5 stacks... 2 Shinten ready upon boss return + 500 shoha.
    You already see all this though, I'm sure.

    It's really not that bad, in my opinion. It's underwhelming, I defend it, because from my point of view it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. I don't have to anticipate incoming damage like seigan, all I have to do is meditate during a decent downtime window. It's okay to disagree as well.

    I don't understand why you hate the term "free damage" when that's... what it is. Seigan is free damage, if. Gonna take damage anyway, why not use it and do a bit more damage myself. It doesn't do much, but that's how I see it. I get we won't use it as often as people would like though.
    (0)
    Last edited by Leonus; 06-28-2019 at 09:46 AM.

  9. #9
    Player
    xxvaynxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    687
    Character
    Oniwori Kiyuromi
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonus View Post
    We don't agree, and that's fine. I get it, you won't use it as often as seigan. I'm not comparing it to seigan though, as the only thing I have to do is meditate during downtime and I'm see it as I'm being paid to do that anyway.

    1 stack... I wasted meditate.
    2 stacks.. well I get 100potency to throw and with 5 more kenki (from rotation) I get a 320 + 100 just because.
    3 stacks.. a shinten + 200 shoha
    4 stacks.. 1 attack from 2 shinten + 300 shoha
    5 stacks... 2 Shinten ready upon boss return + 500 shoha.
    You already see all this though, I'm sure.

    It's really not that bad, in my opinion. It's underwhelming, I defend it, because from my point of view it's not as bad as people are making it out to be. I don't have to anticipate incoming damage like seigan, all I have to do is meditate during a decent downtime window. It's okay to disagree as well.

    I don't understand why you hate the term "free damage" when that's... what it is. Seigan is free damage, if. Gonna take damage anyway, why not use it and do a bit more damage myself. It doesn't do much, but that's how I see it. I get we won't use it as often as people would like though.
    There are times you get a one tick of meditate a lot. Os12 M/F is one, when they do the dashes. You can always meditate on the shield phase but why would you do that when you can hit the Female in the middle...assuming you can hit her anyway...but anyway that's besides the point. Its honestly really hard for you to see what I'm talking about when you don't do any savage content so its not easy for you to understand where I'm coming from from higher end fights so I'll stay away from those.

    One tick of meditate is not a waste btw, more so if you won't be using it any time soon like in many fights.

    Honestly, if you still wish the defend this skill even after I gave you the math of how much it will give you in terms of dps then its clear you don't really care about your dps that much and just defend it for the sake of it, since even yourself said it underwhelming and in this case, the argument is pretty much pointless.

    Agree to disagree, have fun using a skill you will hardly even touch in 80% of fights you prefer to do because you don't do any type of Raids or EX primals much.

    For now, its too early for this skill to change and the rest of us that wants something better have to wait until the balancing patch which is most likely after or before savage comes out.

    I'm glad there are more people against this skill than for it so there is still a chance it'll get adjusted, even buffing it will make it better but I prefer a overhaul like how shake it off was changed.
    ((Keep in mind I'm not trying to attack you, it just boggles my mind people are ok with this skill when they main samurai, but the samurai's that defend it are the ones that do nothing but dgn's))
    Just wanted to point out, seigan isn't free damage because it uses a resource and shoha isn't free since you need meditate.
    Free Damage would be something like your assassinate skill....which I would rather have over shoha.
    (2)
    Last edited by xxvaynxx; 06-28-2019 at 11:24 AM.