Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

[Caduagm]

I really love the changes so far.
The only thing that really disappointed me is the lvl 80 trait...
It would make a lot more sense if Firebird Trance didn't summon phoenix and instead do the same as Dreadwyrm Trance; like DTW - -> Bahamut - - > FBT - - > Phoenix.
It's really weird, tho. We get a new ability at lvl 72 and it gets replaced by the lvl 80 one.
Also, Fester now has the same potency as Deathflare, which makes me go *???*

[ShariusTC]

Maybe they want to keep the rotation shorter, we will spend more time to command both demi summon, and egi when demi in their downtime, rather than spend 30 second in our rotation to use instant cast ruin 3

[Len]

I hope Square Enix saw all the complaints about Demi-Bahamut needlessly following us when we take half a step and plan on changing that.

100y range on all of their attacks. We're inside an enclosed ring where the boss will pretty much always be in range. STOP MOVING.

Have they ever commented on this? Surely they must be aware.

[Myon88]

I believe there's been a critical mistake in the changes to summoner by shifting the 'gate' in the rotation from aetherflow to dreadwyrm/firebird trance. Its actually become far more punishing than before because we have much less agency over intelligent use of dreadwyrm trance in a fight.

Similar to aetherflow now, dwt will be critical to use on cooldown to ensure you get the maximum number of demi summons possible. The thing is, aetherflow was a much better skill for this purpose. The disjointed nature of aetherflow charges (which function like ammo you can hold onto) meant that you could generate them now but only use them later, and you would be none the worse off for it. Even if a target wasn't present, you could hit aetherflow to put it on cooldown, and only spend the charges when combat resumed. As long as you used them up before the next aetherflow 59s later (a trivial task) the rotation was unchanged by downtime.

Dwt functions differently to aetherflow as it grants a timed buff instead (firebird trance is even worse as it has the summon phoenix portion combined with it too). Like aetherflow, you'll still be pressured to hit these abilities on cooldown, but if no target is present you will be forced to waste them and let the timer run out, as their usage is intrinsically tied to the cast and can't be deferred to a more useful time in the fight.

I think that they've created a far bigger problem as a result, this is a step backwards and a major liability in the gameplay mechanics of shadowbringer's iteration of summoner.

[Dyvid]

Agreed. There are players that already think it's unfair for Summoner to have Resurrection, so if they gave us a Reraise effect, there'd be riots in the streets. I honestly want to believe "Everlasting Flight" is just a placeholder effect for something else, because it's really out of place. More out of place than Titan-egi.

Although, Titan-Egi will serve to give us a Further Ruin stack during downtime/boss invulnerability where we can use his shield ability without having anything targeted.

IDK, if you remove our resurrection and gave us a personal reraise with limits, people might be okay with it. Given that you would have to die within a 10 to 15 second window and once reraised you had a debuff that wouldn't allow you to have the effect again for another 5 mins it doesn't become a huge game changer.

[Len]

I believe there's been a critical mistake in the changes to summoner by shifting the 'gate' in the rotation from aetherflow to dreadwyrm/firebird trance. Its actually become far more punishing than before because we have much less agency over intelligent use of dreadwyrm trance in a fight.

Similar to aetherflow now, dwt will be critical to use on cooldown to ensure you get the maximum number of demi summons possible. The thing is, aetherflow was a much better skill for this purpose. The disjointed nature of aetherflow charges (which function like ammo you can hold onto) meant that you could generate them now but only use them later, and you would be none the worse off for it. Even if a target wasn't present, you could hit aetherflow to put it on cooldown, and only spend the charges when combat resumed. As long as you used them up before the next aetherflow 59s later (a trivial task) the rotation was unchanged by downtime.

Dwt functions differently to aetherflow as it grants a timed buff instead (firebird trance is even worse as it has the summon phoenix portion combined with it too). Like aetherflow, you'll still be pressured to hit these abilities on cooldown, but if no target is present you will be forced to waste them and let the timer run out, as their usage is intrinsically tied to the cast and can't be deferred to a more useful time in the fight.

I think that they've created a far bigger problem as a result, this is a step backwards and a major liability in the gameplay mechanics of shadowbringer's iteration of summoner.

Now that you’ve spelled out our doom, what’s the way out?

The Lv.80 trait that summons Phoenix on FB trance being removed/modified seems to be a good start.

[Myon88]

Yeah for a start, firebird trance and summon phoenix really should have been different buttons, like the bahamut portion of the rotation is. That way, even though you're still pressured to hit firebird trance on cooldown, you only risk wasting the trance portion and not the actual summon, which you can now freely summon at any other point you choose without impacting the rhythm of the rotation (which is dwt/fbt's cooldown).

Of course, it's still a problem having to potentially waste a trance if it coincides with downtime during a fight, it's just not as bad as it is now where you waste both. This problem doesn't exist in the Stormblood aetherflow system for the reasons I outlined above. I would honestly recommend just reverting that portion of the kit to the way it works in Stormblood, but I don't realistically see a backtrack of that level happening. It might just be one of the major pain points summoner will face this expansion.

Aetherflow works just fine, the main issue it produced was long prep times before pulls if you wanted an optimal start to combat. With shadowbringers they have changed SCH's aetherflow to not work outside of combat, so that already exists as a solution to stop the long prep times before pulls, no need to change summoner from being gated by aetherflow to dreadwyrm trance instead.

[Dyvid]

Well I'm guessing it'll be DWT > DB > DP > filler > repeat or 15s > 20s > 20s > 5s.

So I would think
DWT > TriD > Energy Drain > Fester > R3 > EGI1 > R4 > EGI2 > R4 > Fester > R3 > DF
BAH > ED > AM > R2 > Fester > R3 > R2 > Fester > R3 > R2 > Fester > R3 > AM
PHX > TriD > Rev > RoF > ED> RoF > Fester > BoP > RoF > Fester > BoP > Rev
Cooldown Phase = R2 > Devotion > R4 > Enkindle > R4

Won't know for sure until I start playing though.

Edit: Didn't even look at stacking O.o

[Elenoe]

- you've used more ED/festers then you could
- I don't think bahamut works well with R3-R2 (not to mention R2 is weak now and kinda better to be avoided unless moving outside trans).

I'm more curious about

DWT-R3-EGI1-R3-EGI2-R3-EGI1-R3-EGI2
BAH-R4-R4-R4-R4-(R4)

pattern, to avoid more R2s and not waste R4 during instant casting where R3 is good.

And hoping pets will actually "plan" EGI1/EGI2 well enough to charge all 4 during DWT "somehow" (they will most likely do autoattack in between :/)

(festers/banes will go into free ocd DWT/BAH phase)

[Myon88]

Well I'm guessing it'll be DWT > DB > DP > filler > repeat or 15s > 20s > 20s > 5s.

DWT and phoenix share a 1 minute cooldown as of the build used for the shadowbringers media tour, so a sequence like that is impossible. It'll be closer to,

DWT > DB > 25s of filler > FBT+DP together > 40s of filler

Dreadwyrm Trance's 1 minute cooldown does not even start ticking again until you cast phoenix, so like aetherflow now there will be big incentive to make sure you use it instantly. No matter when you cast phoenix, the soonest you can hit dwt again is 1 minute later, so if phoenix is ready and you don't summon it, it delays all your subsequent demi primals for the rest of the fight.