Bard still seems really good (and media tour info seems incomplete and will change)

[Cetonis]

I know that we are almost certainly not getting the media tour build as the actual released version of Bard - in the name of posting feedback on the official forums like a good citizen, I'd like to gripe a bit here?

Using the media tour build as context is helpful to illustrate my concerns, so it might come off as toxic raging with no good basis. But it's really just to have a clear example to discuss, to lead into a wish list of things that hopefully we're already getting most of, and why they'll help. It will be a positive post eventually

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The media tour build of Bard is not okay.

The big problem with this version of Bard is that it is all but completely devoid of opportunities for skillful play, planning or decision making.

I believe that the outrage over simplification is misplaced, and that SE does care about giving players a chance to be rewarded for putting effort into their play; they just don't want to make jobs too inaccessible (in their judgement) as a result.

And I think that's a good goal to have, and imo they've done a good job at this with a number of other jobs, creating opportunities for better play at the same time they make things less opaque. However, the media tour build of Bard is a failure on this front (for single target - AoE is big thumbs up).

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For single target, in a party with limited raid buffs (which SE wants to be acceptable), I can only think of two ways for a player to do better than the baseline of keeping DoTs and songs up and using their procs.

One is simply pressing all the buttons on time and not having the occasional delays that the typical player has. This is something that is true for every job in the game though, and it is easiest to do on ranged physical dps.

The second is being good about not-wasting Empyreal Arrow procs. This is a legitimate point of skill.

But... that's it, in a vacuum. It's a very bad situation, really not acceptable at all. People have had this sort of complaint with 4.x Red Mage for two years, but that job looks super galaxy brain compared to this.

As we all know, a large laundry list of things that used to be meaningful rewards for planning or skill, are now going to be gone. I won't harp on that, because it's not actually a problem so long as other changes or additions fill the void at least somewhat.

However, they don't. Media tour Muse is not something the player can/should really interact with, media tour Apex is foolish to use at less than 95, and the other changes also do not functionally impact the single target game flow.

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If you add some raid buffs to the equation, media tour Bard does also gain the ability to single snap Iron Jaws, for mostly small gains. You can also move Barrage up to 10s or so once during a fight to land it in an extra buff.

^ Note that these are dependent on certain party comps though, something SE wants to steer away from. This will be a common theme here.

Now, if you add wishlist item 1 - charges for Bloodletter, which we kind of expect we're getting - a few nice things happen.

First of all, as with any charge skill, you'd have the opportunity to do some saving to line up extra Bloodletter with a raid buff. Again, assuming there are some.

Secondly, the benefits of being wary of overcapping during Mage's Ballad will add another wrinkle of skill.

And third, Mage's Ballad will become very close to being as good as Wanderer's Minuet as a song, which would mean Raging/Barrage could be shifted even further or more often (providing a usage is not lost).

Similarly, if we get wishlist item 2 - Apex Arrow tuning that makes it similar in value at both higher and lower gauge - we would gain the ability to sort of play the odds trying to land big Apex's in our Raging Strikes, or if available other raid buffs.

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Both of those are things we can reasonably hope to happen, so I'm optimistic in that regard.

However, in light of the number of things in this prospective kit that bank on raid buffs to be interesting, I would also like as wishlist item 3 a buff to Raging Strikes to 15 or 20%, with a shorter duration or other counterbalances as needed.

At 10% it's a bit of a pale buff that feels unrewarding to try to leverage even if it is worthwhile to do so. If it were just a bit meatier, so that a player could feel really good about getting those Jaws in there and / or Apex's or Bloodletters etc., that'd add a lot of fun to the gameplay imo.

It's also pertinent / helpful to outvalue Trick Attack, since as-is we are likely quite sad not to have a Ninja, just on the basis of Trick Attack giving us something better than Raging to care about.

I know that'd be a bolder change, but I really do think it'd be a good one, or some other change that meets a similar goal.

[SaitoHikari]

However, in light of the number of things in this prospective kit that bank on raid buffs to be interesting, I would also like as wishlist item 3 a buff to Raging Strikes to 15 or 20%, with a shorter duration or other counterbalances as needed.

At 10% it's a bit of a pale buff that feels unrewarding to try to leverage even if it is worthwhile to do so. If it were just a bit meatier, so that a player could feel really good about getting those Jaws in there and / or Apex's or Bloodletters etc., that'd add a lot of fun to the gameplay imo.

It's also pertinent / helpful to outvalue Trick Attack, since as-is we are likely quite sad not to have a Ninja, just on the basis of Trick Attack giving us something better than Raging to care about.

I know that'd be a bolder change, but I really do think it'd be a good one, or some other change that meets a similar goal.

To add to this, I think it'd be a lot more interesting if, say, instead of Raging Strikes being buffed to 15-20%... Raging Strikes keeps its current 10% damage boost, but additionally increases Stormbite/Caustic Bite repertoire proc chances from 40% to 50-60% as well.

Yes/No?

[Elandir]

I was genuinely hoping for an AOE DOT application. I know the quick nock proc buff will help a lot in AOE situations, but every bard knows what it's like to try and apply DOTs to a few targets in an AOE situation. You either ignore song mechanics entirely outside of Emp. Arrow, try to maintain DOTs on a single target like boss or stronger enemy if available, or you try to take the time to apply DOTs on nearly everything and juggling iron jaws to keep them all going. Basically all of these methods were clunky and did not feel right or even close to ideal when compared to many other jobs in AOE situations. An AOE DOT application would fix a lot of these issues. It would be a big help to the bard class even if it's reduced potency over the single target versions, or lower chance to proc repertoire stacks similar to BLM Thunder 4 vs Thunder 3 proc chance. Given the Soul Voice trait and that we would ideally want to use Apex Arrow at as high a rate as possible during AOE situations. It makes even more sense to give us this skill or cooldown.

I was hoping for allowing more repertoire stacks during Minuet, even if the max expendable is 3 at a time and possibly a small grace period to use Pitch Perfect after Minuet has expired. Most bards know the pains of feeling some loss either due to latency, or just the DOT timer lining up just right to screw you at the end of the song.

This is a bit of a personal preference, and maybe others feel the same. I hate Quick Nock in general, same goes for Spread Shot. I wish Machinist had kept Grenado Shot and Bard had kept Wide Volley. The area and activation of our skills differs quite a bit from how the AOE for melee work, so if there's AOE for us to be dodging, Quick Nock can often end up hitting next to nothing because of us turning and moving to dodge. I just kind of marvel that as a ranged class we can comfortably remain at range in nearly all situations, except when there's multiple targets they want the ranged dps to get right in melee.

Last big complaint, given how much of our utility we've lost. I think it's pretty terrible that Battle Voice still does not benefit the bard that uses it.

As a slightly small complaint, I would like to see Ranged Physical limit breaks be adjusted to actually be useful. Caster LB3 does more damage and is easier to hit many targets with than ours. I can count on one hand the number of times Ranged Physical LB3 was the smart choice since it was added in HW.

[Elandir]

The big changes that are great for the job. Honestly, I like the change to straight shot/refulgent arrow. Many jobs have lost some of their buff skills, and with the addition of refulgent arrow. No high lvl bard uses Straight Shot other than once every 30 seconds to refresh the buff. This also frees up a slot for us. Similarly, the loss of Misery's End is one I welcome. All jobs have lost their execute range skills. And Bard's was the lowest cooldown and lowest potency. It could get troublesome to use all of our oGCD skills when they were all lining up. This will save us a button, but I do believe they may need to adjust a little more of our potency up to compensate for this loss. Outside of the utility aspect, I don't think anyone will really miss Foe Req.

The Troubadour change is pretty amazing. A flat damage reduction means it will also likely work for Darkness based damage sources, and we no longer have to plan on using it at somewhat insignificant points because that's just when the damage type and the cooldown line up. I know that all ranged dps essentially have the same skill now, but this will be pretty significant if Square Enix actually pulled off making it so healers would need to spend more time healing.

The Barrage change is amazing. No more RNG or fishing for the straighter shot procs.

The Army's Paean change seems somewhat unnecessary and I think was just a way to try and make that song an actual focus for our rotation or seem slightly more appealing. The pretty obvious answer is that you will try to line up the song change and Raging Strikes+Barrage as you shift of Army's as you would anyway. Only now you have a weaker version of Army's in effect to help get off some extra auto attacks and weapon skills in that burst window. I just worry how this might effect the use of OGCD skills during this 10 second window because it can already be quite difficult/impossible to use 2 OGCD per GCD in Paeon. I can't imagine wanting to extend this into a song where I will be gaining extra OGCD skills already.

For lower levels, looks like all of our DOTs start off as 30 second duration. Ever since we've gotten the 30 second versions of our DOTs, I HATE doing lower lvl content on bard just because of the difference in refreshing them. Iron Jaws only makes it slightly more tolerable for anything between levels 56 and 64.

Shadowbite and Apex Arrow are kind of cool, but neither looks like it will be a big job changer. I think the assessment that bard was heavily changed is a bit of an overstatement at this point unless there were changes that have yet to be shown.

[Cetonis]

To add to this, I think it'd be a lot more interesting if, say, instead of Raging Strikes being buffed to 15-20%... Raging Strikes keeps its current 10% damage boost, but additionally increases Stormbite/Caustic Bite repertoire proc chances from 40% to 50-60% as well.

Yes/No?

Hmm I think SE wants to avoid asking people to think about their proc odds honestly. I know all us veteran Bards want to be able to play with them, but they've been confiscated :/ If they were going to do something that played off proc odds, I think I'd rather put it in Muse? Let Raging be a simple happy button for leveling-process future bards.

[gumas]

I personally hated casting Foe's....

it still weird me why foe is still not instant cast, considering all other song is now instant and foe is consider a "song" right?

[SaitoHikari]

-snip-

Yeah, Shadowbite made everyone think we were getting an AoE dot. Misleading name AND animation. I honestly think the developers were going to make it an AoE dot at one point, but changed their minds after designing all of the passives. Because let's face it, our AoE would have been completely unrivaled this expansion with all of these passives, Apex Arrow, and an AoE dot on top of that.

That said, I find the Stormbite/Caustic Bite -> Refulgent Arrow passive awkward as hell. I feel as if we need an AoE version of Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow somewhere, because you're going to be casting those dots during large pulls in dungeons, and we're literally going to have a bunch of unused Refulgent procs because using it in multi-target fights is a straight up DPS loss. It'd be a good excuse to bring Wide Volley back into the game...

[Cetonis]

That said, I find the Stormbite/Caustic Bite -> Refulgent Arrow passive awkward as hell. I feel as if we need an AoE version of Straight Shot/Refulgent Arrow somewhere, because you're going to be casting those dots during large pulls in dungeons, and we're literally going to have a bunch of unused Refulgent procs because using it in multi-target fights is a straight up DPS loss. It'd be a good excuse to bring Wide Volley back into the game...

I think the intent behind that is to help Bard recover from downtime a little, make dropping DoTs a tad less punishing sometimes, and cushion a long-standing weakness with lone lowish-HP adds. Stuff like the O10S add phase, the Air Force adds in O7S, even going back and thinking about Midas and the A7S cat, Swindler gobbie adds, etc., have always been rougher on Bard than one might expect, and that's only going to become more true with Burst Shot. So while it's kind of weird on it's face, I think it's a pretty thoughtful addition in that regard.

[MiruWest]

Yeah, Shadowbite made everyone think we were getting an AoE dot. Misleading name AND animation. I honestly think the developers were going to make it an AoE dot at one point, but changed their minds after designing all of the passives. Because let's face it, our AoE would have been completely unrivaled this expansion with all of these passives, Apex Arrow, and an AoE dot on top of that.

Imagine a AoE Caustic Bite, while in Ballad, while also spamming Quick Nook. The amount of Apex Arrows and Rain of Death resets would be unreal. I can taste the tears of the other jobs already lol.

[Singularity]

...increases Stormbite/Caustic Bite repertoire proc chances from 40% to 50-60% as well.

I think that could be interesting as a rework for Barrage. As wide a grin as it induced to see that Barrage auto-procs Refulgent Arrow, it'll probably get old after a while when one gets used to it basically being "press button for big attack". Also considering what Repertoire does (other than in Army's Paeon), it works thematically as a "barrage" of procced skills.

Then again, you'd probably always want to pair it with Raging Strikes anyway, soo...