Astrologian Cards Can't Be a Coin Flip: A petition

[Eli85]

So now all of your cards are the same... just give them a button that auto buffs a target every so often then. No need for cards at all right? You might draw something you don't want from a deck of cards after all. Cuz that's how cards work.

It really isn't dissimilar to what we have in Stormblood. Not Balance? Royal Road or Re-draw. I'm not going to stand here and say, "Yay all the same buff is great!", but at least when you draw in 5.0, all but one won't be worthless to use, which from a gameplay perspective, will feel a lot better.


Maybe they should have rebalanced all six cards to be equivalent, meaningful, and made AST worthwhile to bring for, but the fact that they didn't, I think means that is much harder to pull off then we may think.

[Melichoir]

[FONT="Georgia"]Dude, do you play astrologian? If you play astrologian and read the tooltips you can form an opinion if you like it or not, period. You can even be indecisive, but it's crystal clear enough to form a stance even if your stance is "idk". If you play this game long enough you know how fight design work and you can have a very good vision if this is fun for you or not, period. For me they removed a core aspect of the class and yes, that's boring. I don't need to do the new trial or new dungeon to know that 6 buffs turning into 1 dps buff is boring for me. Because I played the class and I know what I like about it and what changes are boring for me. Because it is my main.

There are plenty of people who "Main" their classes and absolutely do not understand them or the game. It's mostly irrelevant that you main something, but more relevant that you make solid points on why its bad based on comparisons and given data and context. Reitterating - You do not have the context which these skills play in. As a personal anecdote, DRK played different in HW and SB. How fights worked and played out changed a lot. As an example - A3S had tanks strip down as much vit in favor of STR to meet dps checks. The game was balanced differently then vs now when it came to skill usage, DPS checks, and content in general. This factor is important, but is continuously be dismissed because "I main 'x', therefore I know best, context be damned."

If you do, ok. I have played enough Ast and FFXIV to form an opinion on that, and many people here also did.
Stop trying to discard people's views on it because they did not do a new dungeon. People that played this class have the hability to form this opinion. We're not talking about a new skill, it's a core change in a very important aspect of the class.

Im discarding any view which talks about absolutes and becomes doom sayers. You want to say "You know, Im a bit bummed that there changing certain things but lets see what the xpac brings", Ive no problem with. This "SE hates us healers, hates Ast, the new card system is utter garbage" is where Im having problems with. It's all speculation. Speculate if you want, but dont hold your speculations as the end-all-be-all truth. Cause that is tiresome.

If you think that this is nonsense, fine. Many here don't share that view and have reason for that. You don't work at Square Enix, you can't tell people when it's best to give feedback. They released info, people have the right to judge that info. I can't come here and say hey, Ishgard's reconstruction system is going to be dull! Because in fact, I know nothing about it and there's zero info about it. But I know Astrologian and FFXIV design in general enough.

You know why I say 'Give it a rest?' Because some of you guys arent providing feedback. Some of you are complaining. And you cant provide proper feedback on the new system because none of you have played it. All you have is speculation and a lack of context. It's one thing to talk about the parts of AST you like and are a bit bummed that wont be a part of the new system, its another to sit and get pissed and proclaim the new system trash before it's even been made live. Some of you are so attached to the old system that this change is "The worst and will be 100% boring." How do you know? This would be like saying "Ive only ever driven cars, but riding a motorcycle is extremely boring cause it only has 2 wheels instead of 4. Never rode a motorcycle (or a bike for that matter), but I know its boring cause of all the cars I drive."

Because you dont have context of the xpac where these things will play out, how do you think you are providing "feedback". Adn this close to release, you really think your "feedback" is gonna give the devs a pause and think "You knw what, perhaps we shoudl just scrap all the balance changes that weve been working on. Players havent even played it yet, but theyre mighty mad! Alright everyone! Back to square one." Be realistic.

Edit: I checked and look, you don't play as a healer. You know, I don't play as a tank. That's why I'm not on tank threads talking about how they shouldn't have opinions about the changes in their tooltips. Because I know that people that play tanks probably have a good view of their class to judge what they've seen on the tooltips. Like, you don't even have a healer on 70. Specially astrologian, the class that this thread is discussing. You probably did not experience most of the game content in-game as a healer, so you can't even grasp if most of the complaints about healers make sense. You, the same person that does not have any experience on healing is here telling us that we can't judge the expac changes because we haven't played it.

Im not saying you cant discuss changes. Im saying getting warped over it and proclaiming speculation as truths and then trash talking like hell is the problem. My suggestion has always been the same to anyone who gets bent up over this: Wait til the xpac drops. If it sucks there, then feel free to complain and criticize. Youll have context and experience then, and are more than fully justified in explaining grievances with the new system.

I never used the position of "Im an expert healer, therefor I know." Arguments from authority are absolutely worthless. I dont claim to be a tank expert. You dont have to be a tank to understand certain aspects of tanking and skills, nor the game at large. Nor do you have to be a tank to hold the idea "Hmm lets see how things play out once the game drops". I made all my points by reading whats available, by observing other players, by talking with healers, and by understanding the game from a broader perspective. You really feel that a person cannot have commentary, particularly commentary being critical of the attitudes expressed about things being trash before the game is even live, because "youre not the right class, therefore you cant possibly comprehend what these changes mean or the experience provided?"

I main DRK but openly welcome commentary on DRK changes, and Tank changes because its not about just what I feel, nor is it only about what I think it all means. I cant say Tanks will be funner or stupider to play cause Ive no idea how the fights will play themselves out. Even more so, I know healers and DPS in this game who are way better than me, and have more succinct views on DRK than I do. I dont tell them off cause "Oh youre not a DRK, so how do you know." Maining a class is not the only benchmark of whether or not you know or understand a class, or can safely say what is gonna be fun or not come changes.

Your point about being an astro is like me saying " Your opinion is invalid cause you dont do savage, so how can you even think you understand the game's complexities." Thatd be a stupid argument to make. It's why I dont make that argument.

[Physic]

There are plenty of people who "Main" their classes and absolutely do not understand them or the game. It's mostly irrelevant that you main something, but more relevant that you make solid points on why its bad based on comparisons and given data and context. Reitterating - You do not have the context which these skills play in. As a personal anecdote, DRK played different in HW and SB. How fights worked and played out changed a lot. As an example - A3S had tanks strip down as much vit in favor of STR to meet dps checks. The game was balanced differently then vs now when it came to skill usage, DPS checks, and content in general. This factor is important, but is continuously be dismissed because "I main 'x', therefore I know best, context be damned."




Im discarding any view which talks about absolutes and becomes doom sayers. You want to say "You know, Im a bit bummed that there changing certain things but lets see what the xpac brings", Ive no problem with. This "SE hates us healers, hates Ast, the new card system is utter garbage" is where Im having problems with. It's all speculation. Speculate if you want, but dont hold your speculations as the end-all-be-all truth. Cause that is tiresome.





I main DRK but openly welcome commentary on DRK changes, and Tank changes because its not about just what I feel, nor is it only about what I think it all means. I cant say Tanks will be funner or stupider to play cause Ive no idea how the fights will play themselves out. Even more so, I know healers and DPS in this game who are way better than me, and have more succinct views on DRK than I do. I dont tell them off cause "Oh youre not a DRK, so how do you know." Maining a class is not the only benchmark of whether or not you know or understand a class, or can safely say what is gonna be fun or not come changes.

Your point about being an astro is like me saying " Your opinion is invalid cause you dont do savage, so how can you even think you understand the game's complexities." Thatd be a stupid argument to make. It's why I dont make that argument.

feedback exists before a final implementation, and its valuable information even before then. What early feedback tells you is that people dont even like the idea of what you are proposing.

if you decided to buy your children pizza for dinner, and then they text you saying they dont want pizza, they want chinese food. Sure you can complain how do they know they dont want pizza until they try it. However, most people know what they dont want, and most of the time, they wont get that new pizza and drastically change their opinion. And even if the pizza is decent, it doesnt change the fact they want chinese food.

its extremely arrogant to assume people dont even have a basic concept of what they want, and that their decisions and desires are irrelevant.

maybe they will love this new

[Hash_Browns]

I think you mean if a chair has four legs and a sofa has four legs, you sit on it. A DPS buff is a DPS buff rather it's direct damage or indirect damage like Crit Bonus and Haste Bonus. Now instead of a 3 in 6 chance to buff DPS every 30s, it has 100% chance to buff DPS every 30s. Not only is that bland, it's unbalanced.

I agree it's bland. It's way less exciting then finally drawing that balance you wanted, but how do you suppose they do things then? If all 6 cards have different effects, it will be a dice roll every time to try and get the perfect one.

Also don't know if I would consider 6%/8% overpowered every 30 seconds. It's good, but I don't know how good it is yet because I don't know the changes to damage.

[Melichoir]

feedback exists before a final implementation, and its valuable information even before then. What early feedback tells you is that people dont even like the idea of what you are proposing.

if you decided to buy you children pizza for dinner, and then they text you saying they dont want pizza, they want chinese food. Sure you can complain how do they know they dont want pizza until they try it. However, most people know what they dont want, and most of the time, they wont get that new pizza and drastically change their opinion. And even if the pizza is decent, it doesnt change the fact they want chinese food.

its extremely arrogant to assume people dont even have a basic concept of what they want, and that their decisions and desires are irrelevant.

maybe they will love this new

It's arrogance no matter how you cut it by that reasoning: Either its arrogance for thinking people cant discern what they want, or its arrogance thinking people always know what they want.

You want to provide feedback, then do so. Things like "You know, preferred this arrangement or that set up and here's why." Is feedback. The "These changes suck, Ast is gonna be boring/trash/ SE hates healers," is not feedback. Thats complaining. And its double worse when tehy talk about how the new skills suck when they base their positions solely on current content - content that the skill systems were not designed around.

Btw....SE did ask us if we wanted Pizza. We kept telling them that "Tomato sauce, Cheese, and Pepperoni all suck. It's so terrible." So theyre buying us hamburgers now and its "Omg, Hamburgers suck and are terrible. I love pizza. Spent years complaining about it, but Man, Pizza is the bomb. How dare they get us burgers now." The changes are literally them listening to feedback for the last two years and their solution to it. What Ive been saying, pretty consistently is "Dont knock the burgers till you try em atleast. Cause we arent getting pizza anymore. Talking about how crappy the burgers are and how great pizza is without even trying the burgers is not feedback at that point.

Think of it this way: You and a friend are going to a restaurant with food you like. Menu is pretty solid. You get there and realized they changed up one of the dishes a little bit. Youre like "Ok, I might give that a try." But your friend turns to you and says "Screw this. I liked it how it was. This new one is guaranteed to be crappy. Gonna taste like sand. No way is it better than what we had. Man, these guys always pulling this crap. They must hate us customers. You know how I know itll suck? I do some cooking at home sometimes."

In that light, do you think your friend is giving 'good' feedback, or being kinda unreasonable?

[Dyvid]

I agree it's bland. It's way less exciting then finally drawing that balance you wanted, but how do you suppose they do things then? If all 6 cards have different effects, it will be a dice roll every time to try and get the perfect one.

K, go the materia route. Crit +, Det +, Direct +, Tenacity +, Skill Speed +, Spell Speed +. Lord would be 300 AoE DPS and Lady would be a party wide DEF buff. Divination works the same, party wide direct damage buff or Balance since it's the most desired buff.

Also don't know if I would consider 6%/8% overpowered every 30 seconds. It's good, but I don't know how good it is yet because I don't know the changes to damage.

Would you pick SCH with a Crit+ buff every 120s over AST's Direct DPS buff every 30s?

[Hash_Browns]

K, go the materia route. Crit +, Det +, Direct +, Tenacity +, Skill Speed +, Spell Speed +. Lord would be 300 AoE DPS and Lady would be a party wide DEF buff. Divination works the same, party wide direct damage buff or Balance since it's the most desired buff.

That would just have me fishing for Crit +, it would be the new balance. We would be back to the same show. ASTs complaining that their is a bunch of RNG in the card draw.

Flat out in terms of sub stats, crit beats everything - that's why everyone melds it.

Would you pick SCH with a Crit+ buff every 120s over AST's Direct DPS buff every 30s?

Well I prefer AST because I liked the play style. If I liked the pet class more I would choose SCH.

[Raikai]

But wait a hot minute... AST RNG was always a known aspect of the job's flavor, and at least to my perception (I never did cutting edge content alas) my experience with its healing performance had little to do with how good or bad were my cards.

Thinking very lightly about it, they could just go away with the flat +% dmg and add direct hit instead, so you would had 3 buffs related to +dmg: Direct hit, crit and attack/spell speed - this alone would make the dmg boost decision based on the job you wanted to boost, because of different priorities.

Then the other 3 could've been defensive cards. The TP one replaced by a +healing effect. People said that Bole used to be unreliable as a tank defensive cooldown, but I always saw it more like a "room of breathing" for me to heal less the tank and use that time with more dps... Ewer could both save my mana in an unpredictable situation, or simply allow me to go crazy with Gravity for a bit more during an encounter without running dry of mp in a couple of seconds.

[Insertcoins]

She's not wrong though. With all the cards being essentially the same thing, the whole point of having a deck of cards is redundant. Would you play any card game when the entire deck is made of Aces and Jokers?

Again I feel like noone is REALLY listening. They could NOT have kept those cards the same with the upcoming battle changes. It'll been impossible, all those cards come in june 29th would've been dead as heck. Spire has no use with no TP, NOONE would want a bole as a tank either, and with the changes to mana and buffs to the skills needed who's gonna ask for that card? Plus DNC. When you look at those changes you'll see " OOOH THATS WHY IT'S CHANGED" I'm not saying you have to like it.. but people NEED to look at the over all changes instead of just " MY CARDS!!"

[Dyvid]

That would just have me fishing for Crit +, it would be the new balance. We would be back to the same show. ASTs complaining that their is a bunch of RNG in the card draw.

Flat out in terms of sub stats, crit beats everything - that's why everyone melds it.

Then use main stats or something else, your missing the point. The entire point of the card system was to add a job with random chance to buff. At this point you might as well make it a flat rate buff with 3 stack giving party wide dps buff.

Well I prefer AST because I liked the play style. If I liked the pet class more I would choose SCH.

K, but i'm not asking what you job you like playing. I'm asking what job is a raid group going to want to bring. 2 Healers slot, 3 healers. One gets left out.