Astrologian Cards Can't Be a Coin Flip: A petition

[Hash_Browns]

I’m going to wait until it comes out to see how it plays, but I do have a question for some of the people who are happy with the changes. This isn’t me being sarcastic but i’m legitmately curious; why’d you pick up AST if you don’t like rng? I literally picked up this class because there was a chance for it to be really good, or really bad; i’m curious to the reasons.

In most games when I can, I play healers that focus on giving the party lots of buffs rather then damage, that's why I picked up AST. It seemed like the best class currently available for that kind of thing. I started out as a WHM, but quickly found it to be boring in late game dungeons, when I was more then comfortable healing.

The RNG was never a good thing, it was just somethign I had no choice but to have in the class I played.

Since then I have branched out into other classes. I play all 3 healers, Warrior, and Bard. AST will most likely still be my main in ShB though, although am drifting towards tank now, and plan on picking up all of the tanks (PLD before ShB, and DRK & Gunbreaker afterwards.)

[Callinon]

In most games when I can, I play healers that focus on giving the party lots of buffs rather then damage, that's why I picked up AST. It seemed like the best class currently available for that kind of thing. I started out as a WHM, but quickly found it to be boring in late game dungeons, when I was more then comfortable healing.

The RNG was never a good thing, it was just somethign I had no choice but to have in the class I played.

Since then I have branched out into other classes. I play all 3 healers, Warrior, and Bard. AST will most likely still be my main in ShB though, although am drifting towards tank now, and plan on picking up all of the tanks (PLD before ShB, and DRK & Gunbreaker afterwards.)

What do you think those buffs do though?

They either increase damage directly or enable damage indirectly.

Balance, Arrow, Spear: Damage up, Balance is just better at it
Bole: Tank damage taken down, healer damage up
Spire: Physical AoE damage up, or more likely royal road
Ewer: Legitimately the only use for this beyond royal road is to refresh a healer that just got picked up off the floor.... enabling the rest of the party to keep doing damage

No kidding, I can count the number of times I've actually cast bole, spire, or ewer on a person over the last 4 years on like one hand. Has it come up? Sure. Are these cards more likely to get redrawn or burned for a royal road effect? Absolutely.

Am I thrilled with the changes they've made here? Not really, feels kinda boring and I'd have preferred they'd gone a different way for this. But acting like you had actual choices to make before is blind.

[Hash_Browns]

What do you think those buffs do though?

They either increase damage directly or enable damage indirectly.

Balance, Arrow, Spear: Damage up, Balance is just better at it
Bole: Tank damage taken down, healer damage up
Spire: Physical AoE damage up, or more likely royal road
Ewer: Legitimately the only use for this beyond royal road is to refresh a healer that just got picked up off the floor.... enabling the rest of the party to keep doing damage

No kidding, I can count the number of times I've actually cast bole, spire, or ewer on a person over the last 4 years on like one hand. Has it come up? Sure. Are these cards more likely to get redrawn or burned for a royal road effect? Absolutely.

Am I thrilled with the changes they've made here? Not really, feels kinda boring and I'd have preferred they'd gone a different way for this. But acting like you had actual choices to make before is blind.

By no means am I saying the other card system wasn't more exciting. Hell, I have had times where I needed to res spam, and was drawing specifically for ewer, so I get that. But honestly, I think they just took the AST complaints that were coming in, and streamlined the process more.

Balance always being fished for? Everything is a balance
Accidental playing your card by clicking twice? Now you have a draw and play button

Just seems like they took all the AST complaints to heart, and made some QoL changes that ended up needing to cut the whole system and reworking it.

If they made all the cards different, people would still look for the golden boy, and the system would be exactly the same. That's the core problem.

Balance was the best, because it was the strongest and could always be used. Other cards only came in handy when your party was lacking, and they were very situational.

I will admit that the changes to the card system look boring, however.

From what I see if you're party has nothing but melee or ranged, half of your deck is sub par.

Is that accurate?

I would rather have half my deck be subpar some of the time then 5/6ths of my deck be subpar almost always.

[Melorie]

A lot of the doom saying boils down to some variation of "The took my cards - ast now boring/,class sucks, and SE is terrible! They hate healers!"

Dude, do you play astrologian? If you play astrologian and read the tooltips you can form an opinion if you like it or not, period. You can even be indecisive, but it's crystal clear enough to form a stance even if your stance is "idk". If you play this game long enough you know how fight design work and you can have a very good vision if this is fun for you or not, period. For me they removed a core aspect of the class and yes, that's boring. I don't need to do the new trial or new dungeon to know that 6 buffs turning into 1 dps buff is boring for me. Because I played the class and I know what I like about it and what changes are boring for me. Because it is my main.

If you do, ok. I have played enough Ast and FFXIV to form an opinion on that, and many people here also did.
Stop trying to discard people's views on it because they did not do a new dungeon. People that played this class have the hability to form this opinion. We're not talking about a new skill, it's a core change in a very important aspect of the class.

So all the fury and screaming at the heavens is just nonsense.

If you think that this is nonsense, fine. Many here don't share that view and have reason for that. You don't work at Square Enix, you can't tell people when it's best to give feedback. They released info, people have the right to judge that info. I can't come here and say hey, Ishgard's reconstruction system is going to be dull! Because in fact, I know nothing about it and there's zero info about it. But I know Astrologian and FFXIV design in general enough.


Edit: I checked and look, you don't play as a healer. You know, I don't play as a tank. That's why I'm not on tank threads talking about how they shouldn't have opinions about the changes in their tooltips. Because I know that people that play tanks probably have a good view of their class to judge what they've seen on the tooltips. Like, you don't even have a healer on 70. Specially astrologian, the class that this thread is discussing. You probably did not experience most of the game content in-game as a healer, so you can't even grasp if most of the complaints about healers make sense. You, the same person that does not have any experience on healing is here telling us that we can't judge the expac changes because we haven't played it.

Well, guess what, you can't judge our complaints because you haven't played as a astrologian either. You don't have the dimension to understand the roots of our discussion. There's nothing wrong with that. But please, refrain from discussing things that you don't have experience.
You're trying to silence people and saying that what they're saying is nonsense but you don't even get to see the situation from their point of view.
Why are you doing that? What's the point? I get the astrologians that are here happy with the changes. They played the class and know what they like and what they don't like about it. But you don't.
If you can't handle threads with discussions about the tooltips and, of course, complaints, just don't acess it. Coming here to tell everyone that how they feel is nonsense if you are not in their position doesn't make sense.

[Melichoir]

[FONT="Georgia"]Dude, do you play astrologian? If you play astrologian and read the tooltips you can form an opinion if you like it or not, period. You can even be indecisive, but it's crystal clear enough to form a stance even if your stance is "idk". If you play this game long enough you know how fight design work and you can have a very good vision if this is fun for you or not, period. For me they removed a core aspect of the class and yes, that's boring. I don't need to do the new trial or new dungeon to know that 6 buffs turning into 1 dps buff is boring for me. Because I played the class and I know what I like about it and what changes are boring for me. Because it is my main.

There are plenty of people who "Main" their classes and absolutely do not understand them or the game. It's mostly irrelevant that you main something, but more relevant that you make solid points on why its bad based on comparisons and given data and context. Reitterating - You do not have the context which these skills play in. As a personal anecdote, DRK played different in HW and SB. How fights worked and played out changed a lot. As an example - A3S had tanks strip down as much vit in favor of STR to meet dps checks. The game was balanced differently then vs now when it came to skill usage, DPS checks, and content in general. This factor is important, but is continuously be dismissed because "I main 'x', therefore I know best, context be damned."

If you do, ok. I have played enough Ast and FFXIV to form an opinion on that, and many people here also did.
Stop trying to discard people's views on it because they did not do a new dungeon. People that played this class have the hability to form this opinion. We're not talking about a new skill, it's a core change in a very important aspect of the class.

Im discarding any view which talks about absolutes and becomes doom sayers. You want to say "You know, Im a bit bummed that there changing certain things but lets see what the xpac brings", Ive no problem with. This "SE hates us healers, hates Ast, the new card system is utter garbage" is where Im having problems with. It's all speculation. Speculate if you want, but dont hold your speculations as the end-all-be-all truth. Cause that is tiresome.

If you think that this is nonsense, fine. Many here don't share that view and have reason for that. You don't work at Square Enix, you can't tell people when it's best to give feedback. They released info, people have the right to judge that info. I can't come here and say hey, Ishgard's reconstruction system is going to be dull! Because in fact, I know nothing about it and there's zero info about it. But I know Astrologian and FFXIV design in general enough.

You know why I say 'Give it a rest?' Because some of you guys arent providing feedback. Some of you are complaining. And you cant provide proper feedback on the new system because none of you have played it. All you have is speculation and a lack of context. It's one thing to talk about the parts of AST you like and are a bit bummed that wont be a part of the new system, its another to sit and get pissed and proclaim the new system trash before it's even been made live. Some of you are so attached to the old system that this change is "The worst and will be 100% boring." How do you know? This would be like saying "Ive only ever driven cars, but riding a motorcycle is extremely boring cause it only has 2 wheels instead of 4. Never rode a motorcycle (or a bike for that matter), but I know its boring cause of all the cars I drive."

Because you dont have context of the xpac where these things will play out, how do you think you are providing "feedback". Adn this close to release, you really think your "feedback" is gonna give the devs a pause and think "You knw what, perhaps we shoudl just scrap all the balance changes that weve been working on. Players havent even played it yet, but theyre mighty mad! Alright everyone! Back to square one." Be realistic.

Edit: I checked and look, you don't play as a healer. You know, I don't play as a tank. That's why I'm not on tank threads talking about how they shouldn't have opinions about the changes in their tooltips. Because I know that people that play tanks probably have a good view of their class to judge what they've seen on the tooltips. Like, you don't even have a healer on 70. Specially astrologian, the class that this thread is discussing. You probably did not experience most of the game content in-game as a healer, so you can't even grasp if most of the complaints about healers make sense. You, the same person that does not have any experience on healing is here telling us that we can't judge the expac changes because we haven't played it.

Im not saying you cant discuss changes. Im saying getting warped over it and proclaiming speculation as truths and then trash talking like hell is the problem. My suggestion has always been the same to anyone who gets bent up over this: Wait til the xpac drops. If it sucks there, then feel free to complain and criticize. Youll have context and experience then, and are more than fully justified in explaining grievances with the new system.

I never used the position of "Im an expert healer, therefor I know." Arguments from authority are absolutely worthless. I dont claim to be a tank expert. You dont have to be a tank to understand certain aspects of tanking and skills, nor the game at large. Nor do you have to be a tank to hold the idea "Hmm lets see how things play out once the game drops". I made all my points by reading whats available, by observing other players, by talking with healers, and by understanding the game from a broader perspective. You really feel that a person cannot have commentary, particularly commentary being critical of the attitudes expressed about things being trash before the game is even live, because "youre not the right class, therefore you cant possibly comprehend what these changes mean or the experience provided?"

I main DRK but openly welcome commentary on DRK changes, and Tank changes because its not about just what I feel, nor is it only about what I think it all means. I cant say Tanks will be funner or stupider to play cause Ive no idea how the fights will play themselves out. Even more so, I know healers and DPS in this game who are way better than me, and have more succinct views on DRK than I do. I dont tell them off cause "Oh youre not a DRK, so how do you know." Maining a class is not the only benchmark of whether or not you know or understand a class, or can safely say what is gonna be fun or not come changes.

Your point about being an astro is like me saying " Your opinion is invalid cause you dont do savage, so how can you even think you understand the game's complexities." Thatd be a stupid argument to make. It's why I dont make that argument.

[Physic]

There are plenty of people who "Main" their classes and absolutely do not understand them or the game. It's mostly irrelevant that you main something, but more relevant that you make solid points on why its bad based on comparisons and given data and context. Reitterating - You do not have the context which these skills play in. As a personal anecdote, DRK played different in HW and SB. How fights worked and played out changed a lot. As an example - A3S had tanks strip down as much vit in favor of STR to meet dps checks. The game was balanced differently then vs now when it came to skill usage, DPS checks, and content in general. This factor is important, but is continuously be dismissed because "I main 'x', therefore I know best, context be damned."




Im discarding any view which talks about absolutes and becomes doom sayers. You want to say "You know, Im a bit bummed that there changing certain things but lets see what the xpac brings", Ive no problem with. This "SE hates us healers, hates Ast, the new card system is utter garbage" is where Im having problems with. It's all speculation. Speculate if you want, but dont hold your speculations as the end-all-be-all truth. Cause that is tiresome.





I main DRK but openly welcome commentary on DRK changes, and Tank changes because its not about just what I feel, nor is it only about what I think it all means. I cant say Tanks will be funner or stupider to play cause Ive no idea how the fights will play themselves out. Even more so, I know healers and DPS in this game who are way better than me, and have more succinct views on DRK than I do. I dont tell them off cause "Oh youre not a DRK, so how do you know." Maining a class is not the only benchmark of whether or not you know or understand a class, or can safely say what is gonna be fun or not come changes.

Your point about being an astro is like me saying " Your opinion is invalid cause you dont do savage, so how can you even think you understand the game's complexities." Thatd be a stupid argument to make. It's why I dont make that argument.

feedback exists before a final implementation, and its valuable information even before then. What early feedback tells you is that people dont even like the idea of what you are proposing.

if you decided to buy your children pizza for dinner, and then they text you saying they dont want pizza, they want chinese food. Sure you can complain how do they know they dont want pizza until they try it. However, most people know what they dont want, and most of the time, they wont get that new pizza and drastically change their opinion. And even if the pizza is decent, it doesnt change the fact they want chinese food.

its extremely arrogant to assume people dont even have a basic concept of what they want, and that their decisions and desires are irrelevant.

maybe they will love this new