Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

[Ramesses]

This made me smile

[Veis_Alveare]

Thoroughput isn't meaningless during progression or when recovering from a mistake. Not everything is a perfectly coordinated run in Savage with a full static and, as I pointed out in my post, SCH and to a lesser extent AST have less of an ability to heal through their problems alone. Don't have Star up on AST? Don't have Indom up or Aetherflow for Indom? A WHM always has Cure III. It's a safety net.

And yes! WHM is definitely more useful in worse groups. It isn't even just the healing potential (which is greater than either other healer, anyone who says otherwise is delusional) it's also the fact that SCH and AST begin to lose their dps lead in coordinated groups. The first thing to go is the effectiveness of their rDPS buffs (doing less damage? timing burst phases less efficently?) but survivability topples soon after. If you have a group that makes mistakes WHM has the MP and skills to recover from them. It's main sources of damage don't vary by well-coordinated buffs and aren't a large tax on its resources.

Lastly you are literally strawmanning me even though you quoted a post where I said "I'm not advocating for them to not add more to WHM" and then went on to rant about this viscious cycle of healer inequality. I'm aware of that, I'm literally just talking about another way in which (up until 5.0) healers haven't been equal - thoroughput and recovery. It's a place WHM has consistently been stronger and a place that the post I quoted was invalidating.

Don't being your salt about WHM's problems to me, I'm exceedingly aware of them but they do not invalidate it's strengths and pretending that they do will only keep you from being able to form an evolved opinion about the state of healers now and into the future.

Also as far as I'm able to tell you aren't some 99% speedrun world first player so I don't see why you're acting like you're playing in these perfectly optimized comps. It's nonsense.

[Vivian_Vex]

I'm starting to almost hate people who obviously never did anything beyond casual dungeons...
Balance means EVERYTHING. Yes, sure, WHM can do all content. But what is that WORTH, if the other two healers blow WHM out of the water in practically any way possible? Nothing. It's worth nothing at all, because, yes, you can do everything with a WHM. Too bad people prefer to take the best jobs for a certain role with them, and WHM is best at absolutely nothing at all.
Go watch some guides for higher content, especially the last few Omega stages and above, and tell me how many WHMs you see in those videos. It's quite telling. Also, look at some logs and rankings. Even more telling. SCH and AST work extremely well together, they provide the group with fantastic utility, while WHM brings nothing to the table others cannot provide. So why bring a WHM at all? It's like trying to run a marathon with weights bound to your legs. The only reason I manage to continue raiding as WHM is because I form parties with people who know me well. Else I'm pretty sure they would prefer AST or SCH over WHM practically any day of the week.

Everything you've just said is either false or doesn't matter.

People prefer others over White Mage. What's your point? It doesn't matter at all what people prefer because White mage can still do just as well or even better. The ONLY time it matters if you are the 1% that tries to go for first clear as soon as it comes out.

And yes I have gone beyond just the normal dungeons and working my way through EX fights now as, guess who. A White Mage.

And at the end of the day I could not care one bit about people that think that White Mage is less ideal because it's the job I prefer to play and that's all that really matters because *Now pay attention this time.*

It
does
not
matter.

Do you understand that?

[Yuyuka3]

Everything you've just said is either false or doesn't matter.

People prefer others over White Mage. What's your point? It doesn't matter at all what people prefer because White mage can still do just as well or even better. The ONLY time it matters if you are the 1% that tries to go for first clear as soon as it comes out.

And yes I have gone beyond just the normal dungeons and working my way through EX fights now as, guess who. A White Mage.

And at the end of the day I could not care one bit about people that think that White Mage is less ideal because it's the job I prefer to play and that's all that really matters because *Now pay attention this time.*

It
does
not
matter.

Do you understand that?

I understand that you got no clue what you are even talking about, yes. You did Ex Primals? Oh wow, you did slightly harder casual content now, I'm amazed! Ex primals, for a halfway decent group, are a matter of one evening tops when it comes to learning them. They are hardly anything special and are usually cleared by random groups within hours after release. They are nothing. In other words, you are still not even where balance is needed.

Balance.
DOES.
Matter.

Have you been around during 4.5? I guess no, or else you wouldn't talk like this. Back in 4.5, WHM was so bad compared to the other two healers it wasn't even taken into Zurvan Ex by many, many groups. That's right, it wasn't even taken into casual content because it was crap like that! As someone who had to suffer through that time, I honestly, seriously don't want a repeat of that bullshit, so I fight for proper balancing. But know what?

It will repeat itself if nothing happens. And people like you are actively hindering necessary change by sticking their heads in the sand and pretending everything's okay because they aren't even in the content where balance matters.

Balance.
DOES.
Matter.

It matters, because people, as a whole, are idiotic sheep that will run with what that 1% dictates. It matters because it's bullshit that every top group should run the same job combination because it's 'best', leaving all the others in the dust. It matters because it's hurtful to get told to switch your job because the one you love and want to play is garbage compared to the others. And yes, that did happen to me. Multiple time, during both Heavensward and Stormblood.

Play the real content (though now it's already too late with the Echo in every tier of Omega and all that), then come back and try talking again.

[Chiami]

It does matter if you enter PF for an Ex Primal and after people see you also got AST up to 70 ask you to change jobs, and get salty if you don't (Yes, that would be against ToS by now if they "Force" you to do so, but even if they ask nicely -- great feelings around if you don't...).

It matters for raiders, even "casual" raiders who are not world top, if as a WHM they are asked to change jobs constantly because they are hampering the group as a whole, esp. once they are out of the progression stage. (No, I am not a Savage raider for a variety of reasons, but I have enough raider friends where this topic comes up, sometimes painfully. And there have been even NASTY remarks by now about WHM and people who have the audacity to still bring it to the table...)

It matters if as a WHM you are the constant butt of jokes, people "good-heartedly" joking about your chosen job in Eureka, PF, shout chat, you name it, because the flaws in the kit are so glaring.

It matters if you care at least a bit about how easy and fast you clear even a simple dungeon or NM primal with your friends, and melt things as you go as AST or SCH (esp. in otherwise a good party composition), or... more slowly go through it (and heck, WHM is at its best in dungeons, which is by and in itself a sad thing to say...).

It matters if your job is -- justifiably -- seen as the job played by the inexperienced, the unskilled, or as the healer chosen by those inexperienced and unskilled parties and groups to pick up their slack (even though a skilled AST and SCH mostly can do that, too, unless things really get out of hand).

It matters if your job has a very low skill ceiling, and as a result little room to improve beyond the basics. At least that matters for anyone who ever might want to do more than the bare minimum required.

If you don't care about all these things, if you say "I play what I like even if I am the bottom tier of players and badly-balanced jobs, and what others think / want / need is irrelevant", if it's alike to you whether you are slowing your team down or not... then indeed it does not matter. But it is simply not true that these things matter only to the 1%, if even casual dungeon runs are noticeably different depending on the healer (all other things being mostly equal), and so is all other content, and even highly casual players have begun to think about switching away from WHM for that reason. Plenty of people who are not 1% in this game care about doing well, bringing good things to the group, clearing content fast and smoothly, and improving their overall game play over time. Which WHM... is not suited for as it is.

Of everyone I know who used to main as WHM (and there were plenty), you know how many are left? Me. That's all, because clearly I am either stubborn, or endlessly optimistic that one day things will improve. And the majority of these people were not even raiders, much less 1%, but all switched for the same reason: WHM had become too weak and clunky, compared to the other two healers.

So unless you uncaring about anything but your own opinion and personal play style which maybe JUST happens to be satisfied by WHM in it's current, gutted, weakened state? It matters.

WHM is used for progression, by some, and then benched. A tool used and discarded. Or played by people who don't care enough about group performance and their own improvement. Or by people who play with other people who are so bad at the game that the consistent HPS of WHM matters and everything else in the kit of the other healers can't be sufficiently utilized. Or by people who are so casual that they really don't care about anything but an occasional stroll through some lower-end content, whatever the clear time or smoothness.

Or -- I belong to that faction -- by people who have mained WHM since they started playing this game, and increasingly against all reason hoped that the devs would FINALLY listen to the overwhelming feedback from the healer community, and fix the glaring flaws in current healer balance. Sadly that wasn't the case until recently, but there is mild hope now at least, after the devs admitted a little while ago that they DO struggle with healer balance. Why do you think that is? Because the devs, too, think that healer balance does not matter, as you claim? I don't think so.

The argument "all can do all content" is sadly not working in team environments except for the most uncaring about anything beyond their own "play satisfaction", and whatever that means for the individual. "Can do all content" is no benchmark for job balance, it is a sorry excuse not to do better. An individual's enjoyment of a particular job is no benchmark for job balance, it is just subjective experience irrelevant for the greater game system, and thus, health.

I do not agree with the OP, I do have some shreds of hope left. The devs admitted they struggle with healer balance, and said they are working hard to address it -- thus no 4th healer in 5.0. What I saw and heard in the live letter didn't look that good to me, but I reserve final judgment until at least Wednesday when we get to learn more, and then next month as we get to play 5.0 WHM hands on. If they made reasonable improvements to healer balance I stay WHM, otherwise, oh well, AST here I come as my new main. I have suffered and waited long enough as the butt of jokes for holding that beloved cane of mine.

But to say that job balance does not matter? That is really the one argument not working in defense of the current (and ongoing) sorry state of WHM unless you have an attitude where you could as well play a dodo (have fun if you enjoy that, but it seems the overwhelming majority would prefer not to play like that...).

[Veis_Alveare]

Play the real content (though now it's already too late with the Echo in every tier of Omega and all that), then come back and try talking again.

"Ohnoooo the sky is falling!"

Let's look at some statistics about o12s.

At 75th percentile there is about 150 dps difference between WHM and AST plus cards. Let's say cards give about 500 dps. I've seen a lot better than that and a lot worse. That puts AST about 650 dps ahead of WHM... but there are only 600 more clears on AST than on WHM, 10k AST vs. 9.4k on WHM.

Even with this considerable dps lead that AST has it seems like people are still taking WHM with them at very nearly the same rate. At the very least this proves there is no "locking out" of WHM in the way you claim is looming nearby.

The only large source of strife within the healer balance is SCH being 3k+ clears ahead of AST but that's an issue of SCH having too much utility in its kit not WHM falling catastrophically behind.

It's also worth noting that in UwU (the actual hardest content in the game right now) WHM has more clears listed than AST. Almost as if it's stronger thoroughput matters at the very high end.

Also the actual part of your post in this quote is incredibly condescending and I find it to be very inappropriate. Here we have someone newer to the game or at least to healing trying to get involved in higher end content (for which EX primals are a wonderful stepping stone) and you're putting them down with comments like "play real content before talking" when as far as I'm able to tell you didn't even clear this tier before or after Echo.

To Vivian I would like to apologize - it may be cliche but #notallraiders. I'm glad you're enjoying WHM and I hope you continue to into the future. There will be people who try to tell you your opinion is worth less than theirs because of things like clears obtained or numbers but they're just being insecure and trying to put others down to build themselves up. It's really cringy and terrible but it isn't a big part of the actual game community. I wish you all the best of luck.

[Vivian_Vex]

If you are with a group that tells you to change from the job you like. Then find another group or make your own. It really isn't that difficult of a problem to fix. If I can keep people alive and stay alive myself then guess what? *It doesn't matter if it's White Mage* or one of the others because I have done my job as a healer. If someone says that things can't go as smooth as silk with a good White Mage in hard content then they clearly do not understand the class. Because yes you can most certainly be nice and clean with White Mage.

I do not care about these things because it is the players skill that determines if White Mage is a good job or not. And you know what? I do not slow people down when I play White Mage and know the fight inside and out. I can not tell you the number of times I had to pick up the slack for an AST or SCH because they were not good enough. So I will repeat myself. White mage is perfectly fine as it is.

And yes, I may be early on but you know what? I am going to work my way through the entire game if I can with my own static with my favorite job because I am confident that I am able to do so.

Yuyu. It sounds more like you're upset about how other people act more than the actual job itself. If people are harassing you for the job that you play then the report button is there for a reason. Use it and ignore them because if they are going to be like that then they don't deserve to get what they want and then prove them wrong by getting everyone through the content.

Edit: Thank you, Veis. I'm not upset with her post since it genuinely seems that she is more angry at the community. Which if that is indeed the reason I can understand how she feels and am sorry to see it. I however am someone that likes to prove those kind of people that say a class sucks wrong. And thus another reason I refuse to change jobs.

[Maltothoris]

It has to be understood that only now is the gap much closer. They had to buff WHM in 4.5 (something that has never been done before previously). with the changes in enmity and the buffs to Assize and PI. Before then, they were even getting kicked over in the Japanese servers. And the clear rates in Alpha were pretty low. Of course we have bout 30 or so days before Shb comes out and the media embargo will be lifted on Wednesday so we'll see what happens. (Also having seen some of the datamining, it's lloking alright for whm.)

[Flatopia]

It seems that they're not just going about the "pure healer" aspect. But just pure everything based on job action trailer. I saw shields galore, I saw fast cast times, I saw no cast times, I saw damage dealing spells, new lilies apparently make skills have no cast time at all, and I saw a very powerful instant cast offensive spell when you use instant cast heals from lilies.

The issue wasn't JUST utility. Yes, having shields on demand was insanely powerful and made white mage pale in comparison- that's been adjusted on top of White Mage having shields on demand now, so that's just not even an issue now.
The real issue was that they did more DPS in any practical setting. Astro could place cards on the party which did a ton of DPS, all while squeezing in personal DPS when they could and keeping everyone alive. The cards let them DPS while making sure no one died. Same thing with Scholar, they had not only OP shields to prevent damage, but also a fairy that did like 60% of the legwork of healing for them so they can spam broil and miasmaII safely.
White mage, simply, didn't have as many opportunities to do that. They had some, namely tetra being instant cast, Benison, assize, etc. All of their capability to do damage was behind instant cast fat heals, but those run out. Now, if they do it right and shields aren't as broken and White Mage gets a much larger focus on instant cast heals and fat bombs of damage, then yeah they totally can compete. Hell that sounds like the job would immediately have more mechanical depth than the other two. And this isnt' really speculation as what we have seen is pointing entirely towards this. The only thing we're waiting to see are the potencies themselves, which at the moment seems to be what will decide if WHM is still trash or not.

[ForteNightshade]

It's also worth noting that in UwU (the actual hardest content in the game right now) WHM has more clears listed than AST. Almost as if it's stronger thoroughput matters at the very high end.

This is very misleading nowadays. Both Ultimates released before the changes to Malefic III and Collective Unconscious occurred, which caused a sizable upswing in ASTs because they're simply better at both fights than WHM in almost every aspect. People aren't taking WHM for its thoroughput. They take it due to its better MP management since you're expected to die a lot during prog. As for Savage, you have to factor the current clear logs only date back two weeks. When Alphascape was fresh, AST/SCH was decidedly the better healer comp even for prog, and was noticeably favored.

Regardless, the issue people have taken with Vivian is the insistence WHM is perfectly fine and rDPS essentially doesn't matter. To her it may not, but others do care. And it's factually inaccurate to claim WHM isn't the weakest healer in the same sense SAM is the weakest Melee and MCH is inferior to BRD. Presently, WHM is 100% inferior in almost every aspect, which bother many WHM mains who would rather not be repeatedly ask to play something else. It's easy to say no, but if you're looking to broach into the midcore scene or above, you will have a far more difficult time finding a group willing to sacrifice AST so you can play WHM. Of course, this may change come Shadowbringers, however that is the present day meta.

Simply put, no, WHM is not perfectly fine. If nothing changed going into Shadowbringers, you would see a continual deny because they simply cannot match the utility of SCH/AST. They may clear content but a melee comp of MNK/SAM can clear Ultimate. It doesn't mean the BRD isn't complaining every step of the way (or you can't find one, period) because they've been denied Piercing.