Ive no faith in SE/Yoshi-P when comes to balancing healers

[guardin]

I'm starting to almost hate people who obviously never did anything beyond casual dungeons...
Balance means EVERYTHING. Yes, sure, WHM can do all content. But what is that WORTH, if the other two healers blow WHM out of the water in practically any way possible? Nothing. It's worth nothing at all, because, yes, you can do everything with a WHM. Too bad people prefer to take the best jobs for a certain role with them, and WHM is best at absolutely nothing at all.
Go watch some guides for higher content, especially the last few Omega stages and above, and tell me how many WHMs you see in those videos. It's quite telling. Also, look at some logs and rankings. Even more telling. SCH and AST work extremely well together, they provide the group with fantastic utility, while WHM brings nothing to the table others cannot provide. So why bring a WHM at all? It's like trying to run a marathon with weights bound to your legs. The only reason I manage to continue raiding as WHM is because I form parties with people who know me well. Else I'm pretty sure they would prefer AST or SCH over WHM practically any day of the week.

This is an extreme over exaggeration and has been proving by real skilled players that whm can run it fine. Especially in 5.0 everything will be almost 100% based on player skill and not class

[griffinborn]

This is an extreme over exaggeration and has been proving by real skilled players that whm can run it fine. Especially in 5.0 everything will be almost 100% based on player skill and not class

[whiskeybravo]

But what compelling reason is there to bring a WHM to say, Ultimate or Savage, when an AST can do virtually everything better?

This is kind of a red herring. An intelligent healer can play WHM at a much higher level than any casual AST could reach. That's why you'd take a WHM, because they may actually just be a better player.

Personally, I don't heal, so I don't have a dog in this race. My static healers are acting like the sky is falling though, and I really can't see that happening. They seem to be doing a nice job on the other changes so far so I doubt they are going to mess stuff up any worse than it's already been. The most reasonable minds seem to be suggesting that they are more or less just boosting the healing throughput of the other jobs to contend with WHM shear "pure healing" power. As for utility and such, I suppose it's a somewhat valid concern if we take that as the truth, they are buffing the utility healers healing so now they have utility and just as powerful healing as WHM while WHM has nothing.. But it's probably a bit to early to settle on that conclusion since we don't know what and how much is being changed with utility in general.

IDK, I'm just trying to say "stay generally positive" for now because they at least seem to be doing the "right things" on other jobs.

[Yuyuka3]

This is an extreme over exaggeration and has been proving by real skilled players that whm can run it fine. Especially in 5.0 everything will be almost 100% based on player skill and not class

I explicitely said WHM can run anything... I don't get where you see me saying it can't. However, what I did say is that it's far more effective to just run AST/SCH over WHM/whatever instead, since AST/SCH has so much synergy and makes fights so much easier. That's also why I compared it to that marathon example. WHM/whatever will always be slower than AST/SCH, since AST/SCH brings so much to the table, that it is like hampering yourself by bringing a WHM instead. Yes, you still can down the content with a WHM instead of one of the other healers. But why do it if bringing one of each of the other two makes you so much faster than replacing one of them with the WHM? WHM adds nothing the others cannot provide after all.

Does that make it more clear?

This is kind of a red herring. An intelligent healer can play WHM at a much higher level than any casual AST could reach. That's why you'd take a WHM, because they may actually just be a better player.

Personally, I don't heal, so I don't have a dog in this race. My static healers are acting like the sky is falling though, and I really can't see that happening. They seem to be doing a nice job on the other changes so far so I doubt they are going to mess stuff up any worse than it's already been. The most reasonable minds seem to be suggesting that they are more or less just boosting the healing throughput of the other jobs to contend with WHM shear "pure healing" power. As for utility and such, I suppose it's a somewhat valid concern if we take that as the truth, they are buffing the utility healers healing so now they have utility and just as powerful healing as WHM while WHM has nothing.. But it's probably a bit to early to settle on that conclusion since we don't know what and how much is being changed with utility in general.

IDK, I'm just trying to say "stay generally positive" for now because they at least seem to be doing the "right things" on other jobs.

You didn't have to state you don't play healer, it's clear as day from the rest of your post...
The other two healers already have healing as good and as easy as WHM, or, you know, even better and easier. AST, for example, can heal and DPS while moving with Lightspeed, while WHM always has to cast. Similar for SCH, they got Energy Drain and Ruin II to deal damage on the move. WHM literally only has Aero for that. The reason your healers are freaking out is because there is literally no implication that they actually do correctly balance healers. From what it looks like to me, they rather make it worse...

Also, if that better player plays AST instead of WHM, you again get a huge boost. An AST and a WHM of equal skill level are NOT equal as healers at all. Pretty far from it, actually. And saying 'we take a good WHM rather than a bad AST' might be logical at first, but why not take a good AST instead of a bad one instead? Far better than taking that WHM instead.

[Veis_Alveare]

I explicitely said WHM can run anything... I don't get where you see me saying it can't. However, what I did say is that it's far more effective to just run AST/SCH over WHM/whatever instead, since AST/SCH has so much synergy and makes fights so much easier. That's also why I compared it to that marathon example. WHM/whatever will always be slower than AST/SCH, since AST/SCH brings so much to the table, that it is like hampering yourself by bringing a WHM instead. Yes, you still can down the content with a WHM instead of one of the other healers. But why do it if bringing one of each of the other two makes you so much faster than replacing one of them with the WHM? WHM adds nothing the others cannot provide after all.

Does that make it more clear?

I see what you're saying but I do have a few thoughts after thinking about the trailer as a whole.

First - WHM is the only healer who seems to have gotten a large aesthetic change to their personal DPS spell. This doesn't necessarily equate to a buff but something about a shiny holy laser feels more impressive than a rock. If WHM has a significantly stronger ST nuke spell (which it's always had at least a bit of a potency lead in this respect) this could help bring it up towards AST/SCH.

Second is the impact on the "reductions in job synergy" which are vague but also mean one thing for healers and that's Chain and Cards will likely be less impactful. Whether this means nerfing the actual numerical effectiveness or changing their CDs to purposely misalign or something else entirely I don't know but I'm thinking we aren't going to be seeing groups getting 1k rDPS from Balance or 600 rDPS from Chain.

So if the rDPS aspects of SCH and AST are negatively impacted by the synergy reductions and WHM gains a stronger lead in terms of the main spammable dps button it could definitely lead to WHM being a better choice. It's like how BLM became meta at the very end of SB, their damage lead was enough that the speed with which you clear some fights with a BLM is worth more for everyone's damage than some rDPS increases.

I know this isn't set in stone but it's also not wildly outlandish. We'll actually have a fairly good idea of this once the 29th rolls around since we can figure out the weight of potential rDPS increases and we can also look at the potency differences between WHM's dps and it's competitors.

Fingers crossed! I don't think we should get all the way beaten down yet though, there's more hope than we've had for all of SB I think.

[whiskeybravo]

You didn't have to state you don't play healer, it's clear as day from the rest of your post...
The other two healers already have healing as good and as easy as WHM, or, you know, even better and easier. AST, for example, can heal and DPS while moving with Lightspeed, while WHM always has to cast. Similar for SCH, they got Energy Drain and Ruin II to deal damage on the move. WHM literally only has Aero for that. The reason your healers are freaking out is because there is literally no implication that they actually do correctly balance healers. From what it looks like to me, they rather make it worse...

Also, if that better player plays AST instead of WHM, you again get a huge boost. An AST and a WHM of equal skill level are NOT equal as healers at all. Pretty far from it, actually. And saying 'we take a good WHM rather than a bad AST' might be logical at first, but why not take a good AST instead of a bad one instead? Far better than taking that WHM instead.

They addressed mobility so that can't be your main concern.

All I did was provide an obvious situation where you may take a WHM over an AST. My own personal experience, we struggled with final omega for nearly 2 months before replacing our AST with a different healer, a WHM, and ended up clearing the next week. The WHM had never even seen the second half of the fight. Truly, I'm not even sure they were as good of a "healer", but they were better than what we had either way. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but still a very real situation - not just a logical thought process (for me, and I also have different healers now anyways)

Veis' BLM example is kind of what I was alluding to. If they just boosted the other healers without evaluating their additional utility over WHM it's going to be a bad situation. But if there are significant changes in that dept it could end up being more of a wash.

[Semirhage]

Maybe they gave us something nice and my cynicism will be wrong. My breath will remain unheld until Wednesday.

Just be fully prepared in case history repeats itself. If I remember correctly, the next step after a bad mechanic reveal is a month of moving the goalposts to "You don't know it's bad until encounter design proves it! You don't know that they didn't fundamentally change everything about this game and redesign it to make forum princess healers optimal!"

Look forward to it.

[ForteNightshade]

This is kind of a red herring. An intelligent healer can play WHM at a much higher level than any casual AST could reach. That's why you'd take a WHM, because they may actually just be a better player.

This is a false equivalent argument people really need to stop making. Why are you comparing a skilled WHM against an inexperienced AST? Of course the former wins, but that remains true of any job. No one has argued WHM is unplayable, just inferior. If you compare two equally skilled WHM and AST players, the latter will always win. In fact, there can be a decent discrepancy (10-15% difference) and AST will still come out ahead.

Personally, I don't heal, so I don't have a dog in this race. My static healers are acting like the sky is falling though, and I really can't see that happening. They seem to be doing a nice job on the other changes so far so I doubt they are going to mess stuff up any worse than it's already been. The most reasonable minds seem to be suggesting that they are more or less just boosting the healing throughput of the other jobs to contend with WHM shear "pure healing" power. As for utility and such, I suppose it's a somewhat valid concern if we take that as the truth, they are buffing the utility healers healing so now they have utility and just as powerful healing as WHM while WHM has nothing.. But it's probably a bit to early to settle on that conclusion since we don't know what and how much is being changed with utility in general.

IDK, I'm just trying to say "stay generally positive" for now because they at least seem to be doing the "right things" on other jobs.

I can tell you do not play healers due to the statement I highlighted. Both Astro and Scholar have oGCDs leaps and bounds above anything at White Mage's disposal. Earthly Star is nearly double the heal potency of Assize, Collective Unconscious provides the strongest regen in the game alongside a 10% shield on an instant cast and Essential is essentially Tetra on steroids. You then have Excog is even more ridiculous at 800 potency. Yes, it costs an Energy Drain but that's a mere 150 potency compared to the 250 White Mage gives up if they need to GCD heal. They aren't bringing Astro and Scholar up to White Mage's level, they're desperately trying to figure out why the former two absolutely dominate the latter. White Mage lacks behind in both healing and raid utility.

[Atlantasia]

This is an extreme over exaggeration and has been proving by real skilled players that whm can run it fine. Especially in 5.0 everything will be almost 100% based on player skill and not class

No one is arguing that WHM cannot clear content, they are arguing that because WHM is lacking it will be benched if there is even a half way decent AST or SCH to replace it. Because that is how much of a difference utility and the oGCD heals that allow AST and SCH to DPS more bring to the table. WHM is not superior in any way that is actually meaningful.

So even as a skilled WHM, a half way decent AST is superior in what it brings to a raid because of the utility it provides to the other players. And the discrepancy increases the more skilled the other raid members are. I say this as a skilled WHM who has cleared Savage content. I literally am handicapping a raid group by playing WHM. And even if they are my friends, and they're letting me play my main class, I shouldn't have to feel guilty over playing my main class because I know the difference in what I bring to the table, even if I am skilled.

[Veis_Alveare]

I can tell you do not play healers due to the statement I highlighted.

I can tell you don't play all 3 healers in any kind of setting where balance matters.

He's clearly referring the pure HPS that a WHM can achieve. Sure, in an optimal setting SCH and AST have enough oGCDs to heal through the majority of damage that will come out in any content... but not all content is an optimal setting. Progging with SCH and WHM is easier in most situations because of the potential for huge burst healing on demand which is something the other healers just don't have. Yes, in talking about Cure III. I'm talking about Assize every 45 seconds. Plenary Indulgence. Asylum. Benediction. I'm talking about the best MP management in the game. Try keeping the party up through big damage on SCH when your cohealer goes down and you don't have Indom.

SCH and AST both have many sparkley tools that are incredibly useful in their own right but when it comes to purely keeping people standing through constant damage (like what happens during late stage savage or ultimate progression, the content that jobs need to actually be balanced around) there is no contest to the thoroughput and adaptability of WHM.

I'm not advocating for them to not add more to WHM, I'm not saying WHM is truly ahead in any meaningful way outside of progression but I'm mostly just incredibly annoyed that you would try to condescend to someone with a statement like "I can tell you do not play healers" when you very clearly don't understand what he's saying despite the fact that you apparently play healers.