We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

[Mirassou]

Only 2.5% of charachters have reached 4.1 story as of april. Even assuming the average player has 10 charachters, thats still only 25% of the population. and i doubt the average player has 10 charachters.


https://ffxivcensus.com/#top

I don't think that proves your point though - as in they are where they are because they don't like/are getting bogged down by the MSQ.

Just relating my personal experience, I recently returned, just finished ARR (oh my gosh, that ending was amazing - yes lots of long cutscenes and they were fantastic!). I was so completely immersed in the story and wanted to know what happens next!

And now I'm almost finished with HW, and I am still so immersed in everything going on. And I still have another expansion to look forward to, before Shadowbringers!

This is definitely a story-centric MMO (imo), and it's really the reason I came back. Plus, the new zones in HW show so much creativity and originality - love them! And it's great to get flying halfway through (or thereabouts) so that you can really really appreciate the improved movement in the zones (after having traversed them on foot for many quests).

I have lots of alts that I created on multiple servers but really don't play. If you look at characters on Lodestone, people save names on multiple servers, all level 1. I believe there are a lot of created characters that aren't consistently played. If these characters are included in that census, then that data is really skewed. (imo)

[Physic]

Story locks may seem counter intuitive, but homogenizing all MMOs to be the same but with a different paint coat will hurt more than making them stand out for their uniqueness. MMOs that tried to copy WoW ended up failing. MMOs that set out to do their own thing were more successful. In this case, I feel the MSQ and world building is a selling point, not a detriment. Because despite it being supposedly so bad, the game has r
emained pretty solvent.

Again, most of us fully understand that to much is going to be a problem. That's why we keep suggesting streamlining. If I understand your position, you want to ditch the MSQ necessity all together. That's not something I and a few others think is in the best interest of the game. It's a short term solution that's going to bring a whole lot of baggage with it.

Also, you again keep implicitly stating that the MSQ isnt content, and the only content that matters is end game. For a new player, all content from 2.0-current is new content. It's part of the game and a lot of it is enjoyable. There is plenty of time to get caught up and not left behind. There's a 3.5 month gap currently between major content patches. Playing even an extremely modest 1 hour a day average will get you almost caught up to our current state before a content patch drops. And I hazard the average player probably hits 3-4 hours average a day during hte week. This 120 hour number seems really daunting, but in reality, its not that much for an MMO.

From my experience, people tend to burn out when they try to force the issue. When they treat the game and it's content as an obstacle to be overcome rather than something to enjoy. Some of this issue is perspective.



Two things: We are suggesting that that this set up is actually healthier for the game due to what it offers. It's not at a detriment to teh game as a concept. Also, we have been giving suggestions: Streamline the MSQ in older content by possibly pulling some content out of the MSQ but leaving it in game as part of a side content quest. Where people are resisting you and people with similar position is that we dont want content to be accessible by level only. This would turn the game into WoW by default, and lead to the exact same problems WoW has.

As a point, when I mentioned that MSQ gives people something to talk about, it also gives everyone a relate able experience. Veterans know exactly what new players are in for, and understand fully the advantages and pitfalls of it. They know the points of the story that are great moments. This helps bridge the gap between the veterans and new players effectively. In fact, a common complaint is how easy the 2.0 content has gotten and new players arent as skilled as a result. The 'dumbing down' of the game by syncing to HQ gear standards, thus making things easier (and more like WoW in that regards), has actually caused some friction between new players and old ones already.

i never claimed msq isnt content, merely its not content that everyone wants before they do other content.

Also, i am not saying endgame is all that matters, i fact i think endgame is overated, but i think msq is a very poor gate for all that other content, dungeons, raids, side maps, jobs, etc.

msq doesnt give everyone a common standpoint because some% of them quit the game, another % pressed x through it all, and another % bought a scenario skip.

out of a goup of say 20 people from ffxi, 10 people read the story 4 quit 2 read part then skipped and 4 skipped or bought skip potions. So, only 50% have shared knowledge, 40% i cant talk to about it, and 10% only know portions of it, and dont care that much.

[PyurBlue]

As I explain above, I personally feel the MSQ results in a different play experience. Unlike wow, where they dont care if you pass the lore, FFXIV doesnt do this. The trouble is what happens if you make hte MSQ optional. It will then default to being just like wow. You can skip content, and will be actively encouraged to do so (more so by the player base now), and shift focus towards the only thing being worthwhile being the end game. Atleast with MSQ being waht it is, everyone plays it, experiences it, and understands it. The world has more meaning, and the MSQ gets you invested in something other than end game.

Im not saying the MSQ is perfect, or that it doesnt need some level of pruning. I fully understand that 3 or 4 xpacs from now, expecting players to have to play from the start of 2.0 to current is going to be a bit much. Streamlining will be necessary. But there is a difference in streamlining and flat out making the MSQ a glorified side quest that most start players will skip based on end expectations from other MMOs and some of the veterans here.

I totally understand wanting to do what is best for the game, but I can't follow your train of thought. Following the story is already optional. While you're required to play through the MSQ to unlock content, you don't have to absorb anything the game tells you, and not everyone does. For some players the experience that the MSQ adds is seeing the skip cutscene dialogue a lot. The players don't skip aren't necessary anti story anyway, they just may have other priorities, or dislike the particular part of the story that they're in. The story doesn't have to be the sole source of meaning in the game world either. It certainly wasn't for me early on. I wasn't given much reason to care about the story until HW honestly, and that's a sentiment I've seen a lot of people share. Interacting with other players has consistently given me a greater source of interest and immersion in the FF14 world than the MSQ has. That I feel that way isn't more correct or better than looking to the story for world building though and fortunate the game can accommodate both preferences.

An optional MSQ shouldn't lead to increased pressure to skip it either. In-dungeon cutscenes are more prone to that since they force other people to wait on behalf of a single person and new players aren't pressured to skip them very often anyway. Yes there is the occasional selfish player, but they will exist regardless. I'm also aware of the MSQ roulette cutscene change, but again it's a case of guarding against the few bad apples, rather than a universal occurrence. Those cutscenes are also on the extreme end of things length wise and forced on a party, unlike the MSQ which is a solo experience. A new player progressing through the MSQ doesn't hamper veteran players, so there is no reason for one group to pressure the other. You specifically mentioned that some of the veterans here would expect players to skip, but I don't see anyone pushing that. The desire to relax the MSQ requirement is about helping those people already wanting to skip without outside encouragement (which does include some new players). It's not about removing the MSQ from the game, or even making it less of a priority for the devs. Neither is it about changing how people progress, other than giving them more choices. That's how I see things at least.

[Lunalepsy]

For Open World to be interesting:

1.Make monsters unique. Yes, I know some people don't like memorizing stuff, but it would be fun to know each monster's abilities and weaknesses so we can put our skills to the test.
2. Make elements great again. What is the point of using Fire or Thunder if the damage is always the same? There is no elemental benefit/penalty in spamming an elemental skill because the damage is always the same no matter what. Add an elemental grid where players know what elements are beneficial/detrimental in the heat of battle. Spamming fire on Ifrit is not the way to do things!
3. AoEs, please come back! AoEs are non-existent in this game. They let you have one or two "AoE" skills, but we all know it's an illusion. Black Mage has become a Cooldown Mage, Bard is just...too limited to be a true AoE master and White Mages are in limbo. During ARR, AoE damage was really superb, even if it doesn't compare to classic MMOs where AoEs were decisive in battle and only certain classes were allowed to execute them. Streamlining this aspect has done more harm than any good.
4. Monster Drops. Some monsters have nice material drops, but it is not enough to promote open-world farming. Maybe adding more monsters to the field and removing monster reset (when monsters chase you for a couple of meters and they are so lazy, they just reset) can be a decisive factor since you will be able to farm multiple monsters at the same time and be more efficient about it.
5. Cooldown removal. Cooldowns are a hindrance to gameplay and class performance. Maybe they can lower some CDs or remove some altogether to make open-world battles more exciting and efficient.

Just my two cents... again~

[Physic]

I don't think that proves your point though - as in they are where they are because they don't like/are getting bogged down by the MSQ.

Just relating my personal experience, I recently returned, just finished ARR (oh my gosh, that ending was amazing - yes lots of long cutscenes and they were fantastic!). I was so completely immersed in the story and wanted to know what happens next!

And now I'm almost finished with HW, and I am still so immersed in everything going on. And I still have another expansion to look forward to, before Shadowbringers!

This is definitely a story-centric MMO (imo), and it's really the reason I came back. Plus, the new zones in HW show so much creativity and originality - love them! And it's great to get flying halfway through (or thereabouts) so that you can really really appreciate the improved movement in the zones (after having traversed them on foot for many quests).

I have lots of alts that I created on multiple servers but really don't play. If you look at characters on Lodestone, people save names on multiple servers, all level 1. I believe there are a lot of created characters that aren't consistently played. If these characters are included in that census, then that data is really skewed. (imo)

I'm glad you like the story, but you miss my point. Ffxiv is, and should remain a game that has a lot of story content.

However a decent % of players need a more adjustable experience.

also, i recognize many charachters are fakes, but even assuming 90% of them are fakes, its still only 25% who made it to 4.1 Even throwing in a huge % error, say 50% off, you would still have a signifigant issue

[Mirassou]

I'm glad you like the story, but you miss my point. Ffxiv is, and should remain a game that has a lot of story content.

However a decent % of players need a more adjustable experience.

also, i recognize many charachters are fakes, but even assuming 90% of them are fakes, its still only 25% who made it to 4.1 Even throwing in a huge % error, say 50% off, you would still have a signifigant issue

Well I appreciate your opinion, and all of the others who are posting here as well.

It's nice to be on forums where there is a modicum of civility left on the internet (I know people here can get heated, but really compared to other gaming forums it's sooo much better here).

I could see possibly streamlining ARR a little bit - but I would hate to see anything heavy-handed. I still feel the MSQ should be left intact, requiring completion to advance. I know some others who post here disagree with me, however.


Edit: It's good to remind ourselves that those of us who post on these forums represent a very small % of players of the game. Many players never come to game forums at all, so we do tend to exist in an echo chamber here. I always try to remember that when there are a lot of intense and strident threads and posts popping up from time to time.

[linay]

i'm not saying remove story and context from dungeons/raids/alliances.

i'm saying have an option players must seek out, to remove msq lockouts for multi player content. Msq is a poor, non adaptive means of gating players from each other. Especially after like level 30-45 when the mechanics of the game world is basically the same from that point on.

If you make it optional, then the context is lost. Part of the context is that it's not optional because there is some order to which you (or your character) have to experience them. Even if I still do the story quests, just knowing that it's actually optional content is enough to change the context.

Story wise it doesnt even make sense that everyone be in these dungeons for the same reason, So i dont see how other players motivations/knowledge is worth them quitting the game, so you can play with msq heads, tenacious story skippers, and people who buy potions.

I can see how many more players would opt out of msq if there was an option, but that tells you they really never cared about it. I can see people saying the context is less compelling without context, but we are talking about an option specifically for players repelled by the way that context is delivered.

I'm not going to suggest cutting up msq to make it more streamlined, because that messes it up for those who loved it; of whom there are apparently many.

My argument is not about other players, though, but about me. As I've said in the past, I usually don't much care about side quests, and making MSQ optional would make it not MSQ, but instead, just be a long side quest. Part of its appeal to me is that it's central to the game. That makes me motivated to learn about it.

New players who are not motivated to do MSQ now can currently pay around $25 (which is around 2 months' worth of subscription) to skip much of it. On the other hand, there is nothing that can "fix" making optional content as interesting for me as it could be other than making it not optional as it is currently.

[Melichoir]

God I am terrible at being succinct...

Snip

Except SE doesnt see this as an issue. Which brings up the important point: What are you comparing this to? What is the retention rates in other MMOs? Merely stating only 1 in 4 make it to the end MSQ doesnt mean much if you cant give that context to other MMOs. Then you have to factor in the turn over rate. How long people actually stay invested in the game. Then there is the point of measuring new players which skus the infomration on FFXIV census. You see for the census to consider you an active player, you need to reach a certain quest. Since its aggregated about monthly, you may get influxes of new players who wont register as being active, but will pop the total population number up.

My point isnt that the census data is invalid, but that its a very rough look at the situation. And it doesnt factor in to your point about player counts dropping because of two things: It doesnt tel us what the market norm is (so 1/4 might actually be really good rates), nor does it correlate that people leave the game due to the MSQ and gating broadly. Or how long people are remaining invested in the game. More people may reach end game in WoW, but invest far less time overall in the game.

These are things that SE probably does know and take into account. And if it was provable that the MSQ was causing massive drop out, or atleast a good correlation between the two, there would be changes to address that. But that doesnt seem to be the case currently.
ake it. And that will affect the game long term. Usually in terrible ways by the trends weve seen in other MMOs.

Snip.

I think the part youre not catching onto is what player trends are. Currently, you dont have to pay 1 iota of attention to the MSQ. However, you still have to go through it. The incentive to speed through it is greatly muted because of three reasons: The fact you have to invest time into doing it is one part of it, so people will naturally be a bit more inclined to see what the fuss is about if they have to take the time to do it (which then creates stronger long term investment generally.) The second is that older veteran players have also played through the MSQ, understand it, and see both its merits and pitfalls, and will generally advise new players to take part in it out of both interest and pragmatism. It's pretty much (at its most pragmatic) "You cant skip it so you might as well enjoy it." Lastly, with the game being structured around the MSQ and it's importance, ignoring it becomes a little problematic when further down the line things happen and the player has no idea what the hell is going on. (such as content patches.) This is important since raid, primal, and dungeon content is strongly connected to the MSQ in some capacity, and without progressing through it, itd make little sense why some of it is even happening. Again, you dont have to care, but most players do (a lot of it being because having invested time in the MSQ, they are invested in the world at large and its happenings.)

However, if you change it where the MSQ is completely optional (thus becoming a glorified sidequest), the barrier to skip goes away broadly. This changes a lot of the player expectations. No longer is the game structured around the importance of that MSQ, but now its focus shifts to end game content - Namely Dungeons, Raids, and Savages. For those to be worth time investment, good gear or glamours have to be provided. This starts the creep of volitility wiht elitism, because now it becomes a game about getting the shiniest gear, rather than experiencing a growing world. As time goes on, new players who just want to get to that tasty end game content will Skip the MSQ by default, because its the most pragmatic option. And theyll do this not understanding that the MSQ is pretty important and cool because theyll likely have expectations from other MMOs that treat story as nothing more than a side distraction. As more new players get added to the game, this trend will grow, and they will (as they become veterans) suggest to newer players to do the same thing they did. "MSQ isnt important. Its cool, but the end game is where its at. Just skip it for now to play with us and go back and do it later if you want."

Trend changes dont happen at once. They take time, but they will occur if you let them. I feel that this would become the end result and start the community looking a lot like WoW with its issues because this is more or less what happened with WoW. In WoWs earlier days, some of their backstory and lore were things you couldnt skip. You had to progress through them to some capacity. Youd complete a chain of quests which would lead you to the next zone. If you leveled to much, some of those quests wouldnt show up in the new zone. However, as Xpacs got more expansive, Quests and Lore got sidelined. Instead the focus shifted away from what happened to the next little slice of pie in the WoW universe. You can pretty much only do all of Hellfire Peninsual and part of Zangarmarsh and then move to Northrend. Anything else that happens is irrelevant. You spend a small faction of time in Northrend before moving again. People dont typically go back for the story in these zones cause 'its old and I skipped it/It's unimportant." The focus of most players is "Get to the most recent xpac as soon as possible to see what that offers." not realizing that there is a lot of content in wow theyre just skipping in their rush to max to 'play the new stuff'. The game encourages this with tons of Exp Boosted Gear, content thats unlocked by lvl and not questing, and progressing any lore as necessary regardless of whether you take part in it or not through segmenting the game into vignettes. The effects of BC have a very surface level of effect on WotLK, and so forth. This all leads to player toxicity long term. Players become less invested in the world theyre playing, focus only on new content, expect it to be handed over easily, and start competing with one another over Epics and how big their numbers are or how many kills in pvp they got. I think this latter part becomes especially true as the Devs have dumbed down teh difficulty in older content significantly to expedite the leveling process. This doesnt train new players to play the game and either get pissed when difficulty ramps up in the newer content, or hte newer content becomes also dumb and meaningless. And you cant give epics to easy content, or the more hardcore crowd gets pissed - why invest effort if its being handed out like candy in easier content. I also happen to believe what players really want is something that is fulfilling. Challenging content, while hard, makes most players feel better and like the game better when they accomplish it. If everything is a breeze, people dont see it as a challange to overcome and grow, but a chore to get out of the way in search of something that validates the reason theyre paying 15 a month. As a point, while you do get some elitism, its Savage players who struggle and push for clearing the tiers Ive noticed get the greatest satisfaction from the game. Players who just show up for glamours think the game is cute, but arent all that attached to it.

Changes that make things easier for the player dont make it better for the game necessarily. Again, take wow as an example: It didnt take to long after they implemented Queuing for dungeons from anywhere that the overworld became pretty dead. The most effective strategy became sit in town and queue for a dungeon, possibly do a few quests right outside a hub in the mean time. And people started complaining about how dead the world was as a result, not realizing that those same people were the ones yelling at devs to get rid of the older system where you had to unlock dungeons.

TLDR - Give the players a choice for an easy pass to everything and they will take it not realizing they may be hurting their experience with the game. This leads to toxicity and negative trends within the gaming community long term, as WoW i believe firmly demonstrates this. Having the MSQ helps create investment in the game and ensures the focus doesnt become end tier raiding/gearing.

[yukiiyuki]

I will continue to say it, game need to squish MSQ, unite 2-3 quests in one, this way we save so much time on meaningless running and it won't hurt the story itself. 600k subs is not enough for game to really improve and see brighter future.

[Dualblade]

Last I remember a good count for a subscription MMO was considered to be about 500k, which means this game already is doing pretty well being ahead of that. WoW is the exception to that rule that noone has been able to replicate, not consistently at least. Given that SE has still been adamant that they will not be moving XIV off the sub model they seem to be doing well enough.