New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Skivvy]

We are talking about the New Player Experience, right? In what world is there a level minimum to be classified as a new player? I don't get the point you're trying to make. Why do I need to be a veteran player to gain insight on the new player experience? If anything, it's the other way around.

It tends to be difficult to see flaws in a game when you are new and in your honeymoon period. This isn't to say you will suddenly despise the game when you reach endgame, or that you may take the side of those in this thread who feel the forced 100% completion is not a good idea, you may very well love it for years to come.

One thing in your original comment that may have spawned Van's initial remark:

I don't want FFXIV to go the way of WoW where every piece of gear and crafting material feels like a disposable piece of garbage that will be chucked into the scrap bin sometime in the next three months.

With XIV, your gear may last 5-6 months. New patches bring higher ilvls, and then most of what you have will become obsolete outside of glamour.

[Anselmet]

I was using movies metaphorically not literally 2 hours of watching. I know, or hope, it's my fault for making that not clear but it's a false representation of what I was suggesting to say it's a pure movie.

I also don't think the story is that complex that you can't get people understanding the core of the story in two hours. You will miss a lot of nuance but the point of it was to be better than a skip potion and to work towards people who don't care as much (at least yet) about those little details, the people not in LotR for the Silmarillion (Valar concept being a "little" detail, even though it's technically quite important).

I see your point but I dunno man, I just don't really trust SE even with Yoshi P at the helm pulling off a movie summary due to their track records. Like LotR is a great adaptation but not all adaptations are equal. Hell, LotR is one of the few exceptions of being amazing and an adaptation. Even when they are mostly faithful to the material it can fall short and feel stale. Like, if I didn't love kh I would not be able to sit through 358 days and love it like I do and if I didn't love kh I would not have made it through their other adaptations of the story. If its done poorly then these recaps could be so boring it pushes the new player away from the story all together.

I just think it would be safer to cut the bloat on ARR msq, give the player a chocobo as soon as they get on the world map with a speed boost (they can lose it after done with msq in ARR for all I care), and give them a massive amount of exp. Then maybe, just maybe make the classes gain more skills before 50 so the players don't die of boredom bc the skill bloat has been trimmed so much that they only have 3 buttons until lvl 50. It would probably cost less money this way as well.

EDIT: Another issue with revamping the msq into a recap movie is that ARR eng dub does not have the same va. So that will lead to either a. rehiring the old va cast to voice the important cutscenes that are not voiced or b. making the current cast voice all of it from start to finish. I just don't see this viable unless you're making players read a mini novel instead.

[Paladinleeds]

EDIT: Another issue with revamping the msq into a recap movie is that ARR eng dub does not have the same va. So that will lead to either a. rehiring the old va cast to voice the important cutscenes that are not voiced or b. making the current cast voice all of it from start to finish. I just don't see this viable unless you're making players read a mini novel instead.

That and I think the JP voice actor for Yugiri (or is it the EN one) is dead. Not sure how we can get her back for another round of voiceover.

[Ronduwil]

With XIV, your gear may last 5-6 months. New patches bring higher ilvls, and then most of what you have will become obsolete outside of glamour.

Fair enough, but that comment was in response to the OP's comment about "relevant" content. As you just mentioned, once you hit the endgame, relevant content becomes disposable. I don't think that rushing new players to that point is going to be good for the game's longevity. WoW lost 8% of its playerbase last quarter for a reason.

As a new player, everything feels like relevant. I'm enjoying that experience. I'm in no hurry to get to max level and lose all sense of progression. Right now, I'm having fun leveling all my crafts, clearing my target log, and taking on different classes. I don't think my experience would be improved by boosting my character through the game at an ungodly rate the way WoW does. In fact, I found WoW to be much more fun before it succumbed to that style of play.

[Melichoir]

If I wanted the lvling experience like WoW id say for it all to be optional yes? Have I demanded FF14 do everything WoW does? No. I don't remember demanding anything really. The fact that you keep going back to the "go back to WoW" thing makes it seem like you don't have anything to really say. I already said I like the game enough to pay for it. Turning FF14 into a WoW clone also does nothing for me as I'm not currently playing WoW because I don't enjoy it. Some random player skipping some of the story doesn't do anything to you and yet you feel the need to make sure everyone does it just like you did it in the past. Even with max lvl of previous expac msq being optional the lvling in FF14 wouldn't be the same as WoW. Not even close.

The issue is what allowing easily skipping the MSQ would end up doing. There's a fundamental difference between smashing your mouse button to skip dialogue or cutscenes, and changing the architecture of the game to make the MSQ optional. If you can access any content based solely on level, you are changing how the game operates. This will, in my own opinion, lead to a degradation of the game overall. Itll suffer the same problems I think WoW does - Focus shifts away from a common narrative which everyone is a part of to getting the biggest numbers, you start seeing elitism grow, player dissatisfaction their class isnt good enough or has to change for those big numbers, less investment from new players, and overall less cohesion of the player base over time.

Is the MSQ perfect? No. Could it use trimming/pruning? Carefully done, but sure. But the point of hte MSQ is that it sets up the game as plot centric and generates an interest/investment into the game that people can rally behind more readily. It doesnt matter if you did or didnt do savage, the core of the game's plot and premise is there for people to rally around. WoW did not have this feature as much (until recently from what Im told), and the focus on wow originally was small vignettes and end game raiding. Getting those big numbers. If MSQ becomes optional, it becomes a defacto WoW. MSQ is just a glorified side quest and people dont have to pay attention to it. And funny, people tend to not pay attention to most side quests when given the option because MMOs like WoW have set unfortunate expectations that you come to MMOs to Riad and get shiny gear and big numbers, not explore a story and plot. You know, that whole RPG element.

It tends to be difficult to see flaws in a game when you are new and in your honeymoon period. This isn't to say you will suddenly despise the game when you reach endgame, or that you may take the side of those in this thread who feel the forced 100% completion is not a good idea, you may very well love it for years to come.

Yeah but it's worth noting if you want to know how new players feel about the experience, asking new players is probably a good start. So the input is valuable. From what Ive heard from players who start out, 2.1-2.55 is the trouble spot (they dont say that specifically but more along the lines of it slowed down a lot after Ultima weap). This is where trimming and streamlining might become useful.

I don't think my experience would be improved by boosting my character through the game at an ungodly rate the way WoW does. In fact, I found WoW to be much more fun before it succumbed to that style of play.

It's worth noting that a pretty big demand over the last few years is for Vanilla WoW to be a thing again. A big complaint is how hand holding WoW has become in many respects. This is the opposite of what we should be expecting if the idea is New players hate the MSQ generally and it takes to long to get to current content. Because the argument for Vanilla is that yeah, it was longer and more intensive, but people felt it was worth it. Another reason why WoW probably is failing is they pushed to hard to include every person, and as a result dumbed down the game to much.

[Shougun]

I see your point but I dunno man, I just don't really trust SE even with Yoshi P at the helm pulling off a movie summary due to their track records. Like LotR is a great adaptation but not all adaptations are equal. Hell, LotR is one of the few exceptions of being amazing and an adaptation. Even when they are mostly faithful to the material it can fall short and feel stale. Like, if I didn't love kh I would not be able to sit through 358 days and love it like I do and if I didn't love kh I would not have made it through their other adaptations of the story. If its done poorly then these recaps could be so boring it pushes the new player away from the story all together.

I just think it would be safer to cut the bloat on ARR msq, give the player a chocobo as soon as they get on the world map with a speed boost (they can lose it after done with msq in ARR for all I care), and give them a massive amount of exp. Then maybe, just maybe make the classes gain more skills before 50 so the players don't die of boredom bc the skill bloat has been trimmed so much that they only have 3 buttons until lvl 50. It would probably cost less money this way as well.

EDIT: Another issue with revamping the msq into a recap movie is that ARR eng dub does not have the same va. So that will lead to either a. rehiring the old va cast to voice the important cutscenes that are not voiced or b. making the current cast voice all of it from start to finish. I just don't see this viable unless you're making players read a mini novel instead.

In the context of if we just had HW I would 100% agree with you that cutting bloat is good enough and we don't need anything else (and that the potions shouldn't be baseline), since I don't want to kill the story in a whole but encourage different types of people to get in and HOPEFULLY also get into the story. Of course there were other things I had wanted to do with the fast start (like making the intro cater to a different interest other than the ARR at the door of the major city inn style).

I get that you're worried about missing some detail or it's not good enough, things like that. Fair enough there. I would honestly not try to sell the accelerated start as a perfect recap but as a tool to get you in fast and hard while giving you the "decoder ring" in order to not fail to realize what your combat job does or wonder "Where am I? Who is the Warrior of light, are they Ascians? and where was I supposed to be going?!?!". Like the difference of putting someone in the caves without equipment vs getting them equipment, quick run down of the cave structure, how their tools work, and slapping them on the bottom .

To me when I think of them adding more and more and thinking of SE's improvements as they go (as you see say witcher 2 improve 1 and 3 improve 2) that there is just this point, of some people, where they could say "I'm not interested in ARR or HW yet omg the trailer for the Dalamud Strikes Back, To the Moon Expansion 8 is all I've ever wanted". Then telling the person excited for 8.0 that there is 300 hours before they get to it just kills them lol (50 estimate hours each from 2.0 to end of 7.0). Edit: whoops counted 1.0 and forgot that's not an option anymore lol (start from 2.0 XD). Currently without streamline ARR is ~100 give or take how much you skip dialog/know where to go already (I estimated 50 just for the sake of averages).

So mostly I want to see the game be able to, WITHOUT damaging the game for others, sell and be accessible particularly to those who may start with a different perspective or play differently (like if you're used to an action combat MMO se's first 1-40 is SUPER SLOW, but our combat is pretty good later even if you're used to hitting lots of buttons and responding to things). I understand the concern that it may affect someone's experience but I think if you present it right it will just be the lube to get them into the door easier and hopefully turn into the glue that keeps them there long enough to fall in love with what they weren't expecting they would (like some people look at old games and think "LOL that looks awful!!! What could it possible provide me?" and then they perhaps try a game later in the series or a friend begs them to do it and then they're like "wow... I loved Planescape Torment, I can't wait to try Baldur's Gate!").

I get most of the concerns (but I think can be worked around or are still 'worth it'), especially I understand and am very cautious of the concerns about the game style being turned around on them (like removing stuff in the future to be different non-msq emphasized game).

To comment onto your suggestions though I think these things could help, absolutely , and perhaps I haven't made clear but part of the reason why I was thinking these is because there is only so much you can do. When its just an expansion or maybe two plus ARR a lot of these changes could go miles in terms of quality, the lube and glue we want lol. But as you keep going it just starts to be a mountain no matter what you do to smooth it out (unless you go full sweeney todd on it, which I don't think would be good either because some people want to climb Everest- just not everyone). +1 for accepting what I meant to say lol .

[Penthea]

so, if they actually do decide to let new players opt out of old msq in shadow bringers, will you be upset?

Considering I like playing alts, yes, because it would directly affect my experience in the game. Making the msq essentially become side content would very much change the core of how it feels to progress through the game. It would drastically change the game for me. The msq is one of the major factors that drew me to this game. Of course I don't want its pivotal position removed.

I also would be shocked if it happened because it frankly would be a colossal waste of money and time to turn msq content into side content when SE could use that time and money to fix content that is universally agreed to not be working properly (housing) or to make actual new content. Especially when you consider those who have such a big problem with it as much as you have are very much a minority in this game, and furthermore you can quickly flick through the msq or use a skip potion. It's not as if you are forced to watch every scrap of lore very slowly like in msq roulette. And unless you make alts the msq only needs to be done once.

As for those saying "but I have seen the msq make players quit" yea, I have too. But I also saw the lvling experience in WoW, BDO, STO, ESO and GW2 make people quit.

Should any of these games make major changes to the lvling experience in them because a handful of players didn't like it? No, of course not. It's impossible to please everyone. The best you can do is please your target audience, and SE are doing a good job at that as far as the msq is concerned. There is some serious hype for the ShB msq. Far more than there was for SB. And the hype is there because those players know what happened in the story up to that point.

It's worth noting that a pretty big demand over the last few years is for Vanilla WoW to be a thing again. A big complaint is how hand holding WoW has become in many respects. This is the opposite of what we should be expecting if the idea is New players hate the MSQ generally and it takes to long to get to current content. Because the argument for Vanilla is that yeah, it was longer and more intensive, but people felt it was worth it. Another reason why WoW probably is failing is they pushed to hard to include every person, and as a result dumbed down the game to much.

Yea WoW's lvling experience changed over time. The things you had to do didn't really change, but the degree of challenge and time investment did. I understand trimming the time investment due to the amount of lvls, but there was no need to let the old content become so deteriorated that mobs would fall over if you so much as sneeze in their general direction. I saw this make a lot of new players quit. They were bored.

[kidalutz]

Just leave it as it is if someone wants to skip let them pay for it. not that difficult a concept to understand yet some people insist on trying to speak for everyone.

[LaylaTsarra]

Just leave it as it is if someone wants to skip let them pay for it. not that difficult a concept to understand yet some people insist on trying to speak for everyone.

They certainly aren't making changes for this xpac in my opinion. I'd be very surprised if they allow some in game skip without paying for it. Remains to be seen if future xpacs might offer some sort of level/story skip as a part of the release. They are going to make a bundle on level/role skips and Fantasia for bunnies and hrothgar.

[van_arn]

Yeah, I don't think levels should dictate who can be considered a new player or not, especially with the existence of jump potions and story skips. Time and experience through various pieces of content is usually a better gauge of player experience.

Levels aren't the issue. It's the combination of time, lack of progress through the msq, and lack of a job stone that tells me they really haven't had enough time with the game to appreciate how much the msq blocks, not to mention how long it is. Not to mention the sameness of the fedexing.

I'm glad this individual sprout is enjoying themselves. I've seen too many of them sour in 2.x, often going into potd to try to 60 everything before burning themselves out.

Perhaps it will happen to this sprout, perhaps not. I've only seen it happen enough to be cynical when someone's on a story high on their first 20.

Six game phases away from the present day. Soon to be seven.