Instant-gratification, and the "Time Sink Here, Time Sink There" song. VERY LONG

[Rutelor]

I got it now.

OP will wait till post 1.000 to deliver the actual song, asking for it before that point would be wishing for instant gratification

/smile

Rutelor

[Orcishgrappler]

Yes yes SE can do no wrong we get it.

[weeble]

i agree with the op, he saying what i been tossing around the forums for like a year. this mmo by 2.0 needs to turn it's cheek back to what ffxi was prior to abysea or it's a game that in 6-12months will be at like 4servers tops.

difficulty or not, it needs more sinks, all mmo's for crying out loud needs to add caps to everything. i'm so sick of rank 30's in groups for a rank 20difficutly fight. i been playing swtor past week and that is all it is. no caps, you can pretty much get a person who can solo the dam thing in your party running threw it like nothing. or you can take the time to do it right or hope the group is pretty equal. but wtf for, why not add a cap and say this is what levels you need be for this type of difficulty.

theres a line drawn in making a game to hard for new players to get to where others are and waaaay to easy. this game it's simple as it stands your paying a monthly for your cash shop. that is all this game is, a 12dollar a month cash shop that hands you your gear and your levels. if by 2.0 people can still pl the way it is, this game has no chance in frigin hell.

don't like time sinks, then mmo's not the game for you. they were punting around a football analogy in first page, but it's simple if football had a random number after each score to calculate a real score then that is what football is. when you change it then it's not football no more it's something else. don't try to call it a mmo then. call it what it is, a game for facebook rejects, or people who "never" used to play mmo's or games and need them to be easier now. those who "were" mmo'ers an want to ruin it for those who want or still want to put in that time. ehhh go buy an account and stop ruining mmo's, you still shouldn't feel any more or less like an mmo'er. least in a few years from now you won't be part of the group that killed mmo's. we get it lots of money to be made, but anyway.

2.0 needs to be what it needs to be, theres lot of people that think it needs the opposite but in a year or 2 we can all come back to these forums if they still exist and point and laugh and say i told you so. (but in either case i think we both lose, since ffxiv has great potential of being the best mmo if they just stop listening to people and wallets) but for now i'm convinced that no matter how many people there are that enjoy the easy life in mmo's that they are the reason they die out so quickly. your like the walmart that comes into a town and kills off all the small shops then leaves ...leaving behind a vast empty town to wither away what is left of those who stayed. that is all. ty lol.

tl,dr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJI1lCQJlGg
no thanks to the quick and easy game or buck..in game or out it's just a sad thing that needs not be. haters gonna hate. ...but who the hater is will always change so...whatevs.

[CepheiMordred]

There can be compromise. Just increase the difficulty in exchange with substantially better droprates. If the casuals really just want a more even playing field or better droprate then that will accommodate them. If not, then it's just QQ because it's too hard for them.

I'm in the middle of the road on the debate. The only area that I stand firm is when people just want an easier game. Some content should be easy, some should be challenging. How that challenge is created (droprate vs. difficulty) is where the sticking point should (be if true. ) So far, very few people are approaching it from that perspective.

I'm not going to lie and say that it wasn't a bummer beating Ifrit over 300 times but, at the same time, the feeling when I finally hit 7/7 was great.

I don't object to difficulty per se.

I object to this mindset that the 'hardcore' types can decide, by their own authority, that a game 'should' be difficult and that anyone who disagrees is a spoiled brat who deserves to be verbally slapped, which is pretty much the point of the original post.

[fusional]

the bulk of your subs will be casuals and semi-hardcores. but the casual players frequently unsubscribe and/or take long breaks from the game. they also tend to not experience a very large percentage of what the game offers overall. the players logging in most and playing most and experiencing most of the content are the hardcores and semi-hardcores.

a developer has to try to walk a tightrope here, where they keep the casuals happy because it's the bulk of their subs, and they want to make money- but also keep the hardcores and semi-hardcores happy because those are the ones who are actually keeping the game alive by playing dedicatedly.

look at ffxi. i'm not saying this game should be a reskinned version of that game, but the point i'm making here is- that game isn't alive today because of casual players. it has a large base of semi/hardcore players that are still logging in frequently after all these years. and as long as these players get content which satisfies them, they will continue to log in until the servers shut down.

now look at WoW. after the announcement of the mists of pandaria expansion, they lost 800k subs. sure, 800k isn't too much compared to the 12 million subs you're still keeping- but it's still a MAJOR chunk of change. which players are those? predominantly the semi/hardcores, as they become more and more disenchanted with the casualification of the game since TBC. mists of pandaria was just a big "F- you" to them, so they did the only thing they could, and voted with their dollars.

for a long time WoW did a really excellent job of balancing content for casuals and semi/hardcores, and that played a major major role in their resounding success. they gave casuals stuff to do, but kept instances hard. heroics were hard. SSC/TK were hard. BT/Hyjal were hard.

and then the casuals cried and cried. fights were nerfed. the casuals cried more. attunements were completely removed. the casuals cried even more. current tier gear becomes available through simple dungeon grinding, rather than actually having to raid like before. it's been a gradual process ever since TBC where the game is moving more and more away from the hardcore player and more and more toward the casual player. this is upsetting the balance.

yes, they're still wildly successful. yes, they still have more subs than any other MMO by far. yes, marketing primarily to your largest demographic (casual players) is the most sensible business move.

but those players are NOT the founding pillars of your game community.

it's an inverted pyramid.

that's not to say you design content with ONLY the semi/hardcores in mind. absolutely not. in fact, you definitely need MORE content for the casuals. but it IS to say that the developer should NOT allow this to impact the content they're designing for the semi/hardcores.

if you water everything down in the game until its palatable to the casuals, you alienate the founding pillars of your game community and it begins to immediately decay.

so, tl;dr:

don't f**k up content designed to be difficult for us semi/hardcore players, because then we have NOTHING, and we move on to greener pastures looking for that challenge. without us, you have an entire game full of WoW barrens/trade chat. instead, leave our content alone and ask for more NEW content which is more pleasing to you.

period.

you generally don't hear us semi/hardcores crying about how easy quests or seasonal events or XPing or crafting/gathering are.

tl;dr #2: professional football players want to play in, and win, the superbowl, and only the best teams get the chance to compete for the trophy. it's stupid to water down the NFL and let every team have a crack at the championship even when they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the first place. (and/or to completely change the rules to allow the worst teams a shot at winning)

don't make the cut for the superbowl? cool. that sucks. maybe instead of messing it up for those who do- you can ask for your own minor league championship, yeah?

[Nikita]

From the start, we knew that this game was designed for both casuals and hardcores. I think people need to accept the fact that this game isn't designed for a single stereotype of gamers, it is designed for all. Telling people to leave the game and play something else will in no way help this game, since that is what most people already did. Look where we are now.

I will play this game no matter how easy/hard they make it. I love Final Fantasy for the immersive world and amazing storytelling, I can look up into the night sky and be awe struck at how much detail they put into such a small part of the game. The fact that this is an MMO is an added bonus. It is a shame that people get so upset when everything isn't designed specifically for them.

As a community of players, we need to accept the fact that not everyone will agree with our own opinions. We need to be willing to see certain features added that we might not agree with for the simple fact that those features we dislike are very much appreciated by another group of players. It's the golden rule. How can casual players accept hardcore content if hardcore players cant accept casual content? There needs to be some for everyone, because we knew from the start that this was a game designed for everyone. To reject that philosophy is to reject this game. And why are you playing it if you cannot accept the foundation on which this game was built?

It is time that both sides embraced each other, because both sides are here to stay. At the end of the day, the developers make the call on what is added and what gets changed. I, as a fan, trust that they will make the right decisions for the game.

[CepheiMordred]

the bulk of your subs will be casuals and semi-hardcores. but the casual players frequently unsubscribe and/or take long breaks from the game. they also tend to not experience a very large percentage of what the game offers overall. the players logging in most and playing most and experiencing most of the content are the hardcores and semi-hardcores.

a developer has to try to walk a tightrope here, where they keep the casuals happy because it's the bulk of their subs, and they want to make money- but also keep the hardcores and semi-hardcores happy because those are the ones who are actually keeping the game alive by playing dedicatedly.

look at ffxi. i'm not saying this game should be a reskinned version of that game, but the point i'm making here is- that game isn't alive today because of casual players. it has a large base of semi/hardcore players that are still logging in frequently after all these years. and as long as these players get content which satisfies them, they will continue to log in until the servers shut down.

now look at WoW. after the announcement of the mists of pandaria expansion, they lost 800k subs. sure, 800k isn't too much compared to the 12 million subs you're still keeping- but it's still a MAJOR chunk of change. which players are those? predominantly the semi/hardcores, as they become more and more disenchanted with the casualification of the game since TBC. mists of pandaria was just a big "F- you" to them, so they did the only thing they could, and voted with their dollars.

for a long time WoW did a really excellent job of balancing content for casuals and semi/hardcores, and that played a major major role in their resounding success. they gave casuals stuff to do, but kept instances hard. heroics were hard. SSC/TK were hard. BT/Hyjal were hard.

and then the casuals cried and cried. fights were nerfed. the casuals cried more. attunements were completely removed. the casuals cried even more. current tier gear becomes available through simple dungeon grinding, rather than actually having to raid like before. it's been a gradual process ever since TBC where the game is moving more and more away from the hardcore player and more and more toward the casual player. this is upsetting the balance.

yes, they're still wildly successful. yes, they still have more subs than any other MMO by far. yes, marketing primarily to your largest demographic (casual players) is the most sensible business move.

but those players are NOT the founding pillars of your game community.

it's an inverted pyramid.

that's not to say you design content with ONLY the semi/hardcores in mind. absolutely not. in fact, you definitely need MORE content for the casuals. but it IS to say that the developer should NOT allow this to impact the content they're designing for the semi/hardcores.

if you water everything down in the game until its palatable to the casuals, you alienate the founding pillars of your game community and it begins to immediately decay.

so, tl;dr:

don't f**k up content designed to be difficult for us semi/hardcore players, because then we have NOTHING, and we move on to greener pastures looking for that challenge. without us, you have an entire game full of WoW barrens/trade chat. instead, leave our content alone and ask for more NEW content which is more pleasing to you.

period.

you generally don't hear us semi/hardcores crying about how easy quests or seasonal events or XPing or crafting/gathering are.

tl;dr #2: professional football players want to play in, and win, the superbowl, and only the best teams get the chance to compete for the trophy. it's stupid to water down the NFL and let every team have a crack at the championship even when they weren't good enough to make the playoffs in the first place. (and/or to completely change the rules to allow the worst teams a shot at winning)

don't make the cut for the superbowl? cool. that sucks. maybe instead of messing it up for those who do- you can ask for your own minor league championship, yeah?

This is exactly the attitude I was talking about.

It's all well and good to want to be the best, but you seem like you can't do that without sneering at those who fall short, especially if they fail to acknowledge your greatness or believe that the rules aren't necessarily fair.

Just ask yourself this, can you want yourself to be at the top of the heap without insulting everyone who doesn't fit into your view of a Brave New World of hardcore supremacy? Can you lobby to keep hard things hard without sounding like you just want to keep things out of reach so you can hold them over the heads of lesser players?

It's not that there aren't good players, bad players, and lazy players, but a kind word turns away wrath. Make your point without treating those you disagree with like they're garbage.

tl;dr - bads are people too.

[TheVedis]

This is exactly the attitude I was talking about.

It's all well and good to want to be the best, but you seem like you can't do that without sneering at those who fall short, especially if they fail to acknowledge your greatness or believe that the rules aren't necessarily fair.

Just ask yourself this, can you want yourself to be at the top of the heap without insulting everyone who doesn't fit into your view of a Brave New World of hardcore supremacy? Can you lobby to keep hard things hard without sounding like you just want to keep things out of reach so you can hold them over the heads of lesser players?

It's not that there aren't good players, bad players, and lazy players, but a kind word turns away wrath. Make your point without treating those you disagree with like they're garbage.

tl;dr - bads are people too.

hard fights vs easy fights has nothing to do with casual vs hardcore and alot of people are misinformed about it

the general atttitude is those who play more feel they deserve more then anyone else and therefore those who dont play as much should be denied access and rewards

me, as someone who plays more then most people i know understand this but do not agree with it

there is a middle ground


a hard vs easy fight doesnt mean a casual cant beat it, sure itl be harder if they dont play as much to earn their skills, but its far beyond out of reach


time consuming achievements on the other hand require you to play alot, now while casuals may not have these as in reach, it can be a long term goal for them.

if something may require you to play for 50 hours, as a casual player with less time its up to you to determine if its worth it, however actualy in game content shouldnt require this(and it doesnt)
i dont feel achievemnts fall into content fyi


there are alot of casuals who want to be spoonfed
there are alot of hardcores who want to deny others of everything

we cant change that fact, but we can try our best to accomidate the majority which the above 2 streotypes do not generaly fall into

[CepheiMordred]

Okay, I'm just pointing out that part of the problem is on the hardcore side sounding full of themselves.

Also, some of you might be jumping to conclusions about me from my admittedly not well thought out post about the new armors.

Let me state here and now that I'm not even necessarily looking for easy AF armor. Even a plainer but still nice looking set that's within easy reach of all would be alright.

And again, it doesn't have to be good stats either. It's not like I'm asking to be given the masamune and the black materia here. I'm not asking to be made into Sephiroth easily. All I'm asking for is what every level 1 white mage in Final Fantasy 1 gets.

So yeah, that's where I stand.

[TheVedis]

Okay, I'm just pointing out that part of the problem is on the hardcore side sounding full of themselves.

Also, some of you might be jumping to conclusions about me from my admittedly not well thought out post about the new armors.

Let me state here and now that I'm not even necessarily looking for easy AF armor. Even a plainer but still nice looking set that's within easy reach of all would be alright.

And again, it doesn't have to be good stats either. It's not like I'm asking to be given the masamune and the black materia here. I'm not asking to be made into Sephiroth easily. All I'm asking for is what every level 1 white mage in Final Fantasy 1 gets.

So yeah, that's where I stand.

just pointing out your opinion is obviously very biased based on the first line of what im quoting

trust me you dont want to take that atttitude as itl seperate people into arguing in your threads instead of getting good valid discussion going on as can be seen by several things in the past


lets not even look at the casual vs hardcore crowd(this debate usualy trends towards that when someone gets upset at peoples opinions which seem more on the aggressive towards one camp or the other side)


should AF armors be hard to get? no not too hard
should they be spoon fed? of course not

could perhaps a time sink go into them? well yes(nothing as abusive as the tier 5 gathering/crafting ones, but more along the lines of the tier 2 ones may be good, those take roughly 2 hours each to do).

is this punishing anyone by making it a timesink? of course not! not a that range.
hardcores who play more will get them faster, casuals who play less will get them without it taking forever while it still will require time.