New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[Crystal_Raven]

ARR should be heavily condensed honestly. It's an useless slog and it just makes people want to quit with how dragged out and full of filler it is.

First time I played FF14 I ended up quitting because I just didn't want to deal with ARR story anymore, it was so abysmally bad. When I came back I just bought a story skip just because I didn't want to deal with how pathetic the ARR story is. For the part of ARR that I played(until level 50 or so), I felt like a UPS driver delivering packages to people all over the world rather than doing something actually useful.

I've invited 10 irl friends to this game, none of them remained with it. They like the game, the gameplay, the combat, dungeons, they despise the ARR story.

[Penthea]

i believe you enjoy msq, and feel it is the most integral part of ffxiv

That's not an opinion, it is a fact. You said yourself. It's a requirement to engage in nearly everything in the game. It's also the reason given for almost everywhere we can go and everything we can do. If that isn't integral or central, then what is?

what i am telling you is many others dont feel that way, and the longer/more of that they have to do to experience content they want to play, the less likely they are to keep playing.

What you're saying is some players don't feel the msq is central to their enjoyment. That's not the same as the msq not being central to the game.

This i think, is most likely with referals, because people being refered expect to play mostly with their friends.

This really depends on the person. For some people being in the same ls or fc as their buddies and doing content together only every so often is enough. Others at the opposite end of the spectrum want to always be doing content with their friends. There are many varying degrees in between the two as well. And of course for some people this changes day to day with their mood. I know quite a few referral players, some I referred myself, and their social habits differ from one another.

[Wynn_Storm]

ARR should be heavily condensed honestly. It's an useless slog and it just makes people want to quit with how dragged out and full of filler it is.

First time I played FF14 I ended up quitting because I just didn't want to deal with ARR story anymore, it was so abysmally bad. When I came back I just bought a story skip just because I didn't want to deal with how pathetic the ARR story is. For the part of ARR that I played(until level 50 or so), I felt like a UPS driver delivering packages to people all over the world rather than doing something actually useful.

I've invited 10 irl friends to this game, none of them remained with it. They like the game, the gameplay, the combat, dungeons, they despise the ARR story.

Like i have stated many times. ARR story is too long and full of nonsense quests. All my friends who got the game for free via twitch prime, none of them stuck around. I had seven join, but none of them play anymore.

Its disappointing because the game gets better later on, but slogging through all that mess is just a deal breaker for some people.

I hated going through the ARR MSQ. And i know there will be people who say "If you hate the story, why do you play?"

I play for the gameplay, i enjoy all the jobs at a high level and i have fun playing them. I know its a tough concept, knowing that people play a game for multiple reasons.

[Kamatsu]

FFXIV is a good game, but it's 90% solo and most people that play MMOs don't wanna play a single player game. FFXIV history is good, I like it, I've enjoyed doing it. But doesn't change the fact that it's a very bad design for a MMO, and everytime I get a new friend to play the game, I remember that.

This is another example to what I speak of - people who act like the way they play is what the majority of players do, despite all facts, evidence, stats, etc showing otherwise. I sadly see too many vocal people pushing the idea that MMO's = group focused, and that MMO players = want/prefer group orientated content.

Guess what? The fact that most MMO's dev's who have spoken out state the majority of their players play solo. The most played content in MMO's is solo'able content, not group content. Do you know WHY WoW was such a big hit? There's 3 reason's:

#1. It was made by Blizzard
#2. It was the follow-on of WarCraft 3.
#3. It was the 1st MMO to cater to casual players, where grouping was NOT required for the vast majority of the game.

It was such a big hit because it was accessable to those players who didn't want to play with other people, who wanted to quest and role-play and muck-around at their own pace. There is a reason why Beastmaster Hunter's were the most played class & spec in the game - thisd is because it was the easiest to solo the open-world quest's with... you had a tank pet that you sicced on enemies, you could autofire your bow/gun while healing the pet.

Look at what happened to Guild Wars 2's first expansion, Heart of Thrones. It was made a lot harder and way, way more group focused - in fact there were skill points & map completion points & such that you could NOT do solo. You had to have other players (whether in a group or just a zerg of them going around) to do many things. Guess what the result was? Huge complaints on the forums & reddit, and ANet's revenue tanked by 62% after it launched.

62% revenue loss due to solo-orientated players leaving the game because they turned a solo-friendly MMO into a 'group or your screwed' MMO. The dev's eventually apologies for this and nerfed & changed the expansion so solo-orientated players could complete it. Still, the damage was done.

Take ESO, it does provide group-focused dungeon expansions. However this content is the least played content in the game. There are known clear figures for the dungeons, and they are all 5-10%. There's also known figures for achievements to just step into the dungeon, let alone clear it, and guess what? The %'s of these do not go over 30-40%. And these expansions are given for free to people with ESO+ (optional sub), so these people can hope over to get their 'visit the dungeon' achievement & other goodies (title, trohpy, mini-pet, etc) and then leave.... I know I (and quite a lot of others I know) have done exactly that.

When it boils down to it, the saying "follow the money" is extremely apt. If solo-focused content isn't what the majority wanted or liked, then most MMO's wouldn't be packed with solo-focused content. Why would a publisher/dev want to spend resources on an aspect of the game that doesn't bring home the $$$? Unless they are arrogant idiots... they will ensure that the majority of the content of their games is playable by the majority of their playerbase. you can look through the history of MMO's and see: solo friendly MMO's succeeded, group-focused either became small niche games or died off.

Not saying there's not a place for endgame, hardcore, group-focused content in MMO's - there obviously is, and there should always be some in all MMO's for those who like it. Just stop it with this "MMO's = group" nonsense. MMO's = games with many other players, that you can chat to, play with, group up if you want, etc.

Most MMOs are 90% solo game, and most of them require a lot of play before you reach the "endgame." FFXIV is not at all unusual in this aspect.

If anything FFXIV stands out in how much multi-player content is required to do before reaching level cap. In most other MMOs you can easily play solo all the way up to level cap, and lots of people do just that.

This person gets it. Virtually all MMO's are 90+% solo games, where you can group up if you want... or you can play it solo if you want. And you know what? Playing through various MMO's I hardly ever come across people playing in groups... virtually always saw ppl questing, farming, etc solo... and only grouping when it was for a dungeon and/or raid.

Also yes, FFXIV is actually an exception in the MMO genre when it comes to forced group content. There is way, way more forced grouping through dungeons to get through the MSQ than in virtually any other MMO. I can't think of one other MMO that actually forces you to go into group dungeons throughout it's story, and not just at the end of the game.

Sure many games had optional dungeons that you could do as you leveled up that added to the story if done at the appropriate level / part of the story (WoW, GW2, and SW:TOR arer 3 examples of this)... but they were optional and didn't prevent you from moving on with the main story if you didn't do them. In FFXIV... you either do the dungeons or you can never proceed with the MSQ.

Yes, you'll have people that want to rush to endgame - you'll always have, and I don't know why you people should care so much about them, since how they decide to play a game shouldn't be your concern. But they're hardly the majority. I think that there are a lot of people that would like to enjoy the journey, if only the journey wasn't getting to one npc to the next while reading text for hundred of hours.

See this is the thing. You say "You shouldn't care how they want to play if they want to skip the MSQ", and you're right on that (if someone wants to pay to skip the story, that's their choice... I don't care), but then you go on to imply/state that the MSQ is too long and boring and should be shortned/cut. That is what drives the 'story focused' players to respond so harshly to these kinds of threads.

Because it's usually by those who don't care for the story, who don't want to play the game for the story... who then demand that the story be shortened for them so they can get to the part(s) of the game they are interested in.... and who then get all defensive when people go against this idea and out springs the "It's the way I play, you shouldn't care, it shouldn't be your concern how I play".

That's the rub - you don't care about how others play the game, you want to destroy/shorten the aspect of the game that they have fun for, all so you can get to your fun quicker.... and those whose fun your crippling should just shut up and accept it?

I wonder, what would your tune be if ppl suggested removing the skip potions, adding in 100+ story-based quest's in each expansion with no skipping possible, and also requiring side-quest's in a dungeons zone done prior to doing any dungeon. I'm 100% sure you would rage and complain bitterly about it, how it's taking away your fun, making you play stuff you didn't want, etc.

all of gw2 story missions can be done with friends, including starter stories, i know because i have done them, you can even progress together if you are up to the same story steps, the person who starts the instance makes the talking decisions.

Ah wells. It's been too long since I've played GW2. I do remember some complaints about personal story not being groupable, but it possible was either only specific ones or because people weren't at the same stage.

the problem with pay for it options is this. The people you are expecting to pay are not invested in this product. The whole reason people are suggesting they give new players some option to get around MSQ is turns off a lot of new buyers, and makes it way harder for existing players to get newbs into the game.

I indeed can see what your saying here, and if someone is not really interested in story-based stuff, then why would they stick it out till they are high enough level to get into the content they want... and why would they pay even more to do that, without knowing what the dungeons, trials, raids, etc are actually like.

i think a good method might be having a mechanic where you can skip to the beginning of any expansion/post expansion story step, and of course go back. Or i guess anything, as long as it allows the player to access other parts of the game, and go back to thestory later when they are ready/feel like it.

Maybe a change to the FFXIV trial then? Have the trial include base agme & all expansions, allow people to create characters as per normal right now... but also allow them a 'special' creation that starts at max level, has story done up to the expansion, and all dungeions, trials, raids unlocked and queueable. This 'special' character could not be played on a paid account and would auto-delete after X days after being created, but would allow people who wanted to see if the game was worth their while.. the ability to experience the latest story (even if it left them confused), and all the dungeons/trials/raids.

This obviously wouldn't address those who want to play the game and skip to the end, but it would address what you just said - letting ppl see more of the game to see if it's something they want to play (especially if their only option to skip the MSQ if they want is to pay even more).

i just dont think you will retain a lot of players with ARR and other expansions of story the player has to consume to have access to the other parts of the game. At this point in its cycle, mmos have to honestly consider how effectively new players can access content. Some one may be here just for the dragons of heavenswatd, or the dancer job, etc.

This is a dilemma that all expansion-based MMO's have to deal with. As they get more and more expansions, it gets harder for new players to experience the 'current' content when it's still actually current. So do they allow skips, boost's, or shortned the previous expansion content... and do it for free or charge for it. All the while remembering that the longer a game last's... there will be deminishing returns of new players, especially in a level based MMO like FFXIV.

I'll be honest that I'm glad I'm not a dev or publisher having to deal with this issue. Because it's not something that's easy to answer. No matter what they do... it will either be not enough or too much for people.

IE: Skip potions were added to XIV due to demand from ppl who didn't want to play MSQ on alts... but then you have people like you who point out that skip potions can be / are unfair to those just starting but wanting to get to the 'current' expansion content. Then you have others who suggest butchering the MSQ to shorten it and remove the chunks they feel boring... which then alienates / annoys those who play for the story.

[Emmanellain]

"You do realize I have said plenty about this topic throughout this thread and including another thread similar to this topic."

Saying something and actually adding to a conversation are different things.

She does not speak for everyone, therefore she should stop.

You still ask for her to be silent, telling someone to stop speaking is not adding to the conversation - it is silencing.

I could say the same thing about you. Who cares that you exclusively play for gameplay? Your enjoyment is not representative of the entire playerbase.
There's an option to skip the cutscenes and potions if you so vehemently hate MSQ content.
Instead of arguing what purpose people play for, we should instead discuss solutions that actually get us somewhere.

Also anyone can state facts but she is not including any of the resources where she is getting these so called facts.

I, too, would like sources for the percentages they bring forth because I'd like to look through them, but you can at least have the common decency to ask for sources instead of telling them to shut up lmao

[Reap00]

Like i have stated many times. ARR story is too long and full of nonsense quests. All my friends who got the game for free via twitch prime, none of them stuck around. I had seven join, but none of them play anymore.

Its disappointing because the game gets better later on, but slogging through all that mess is just a deal breaker for some people.

I hated going through the ARR MSQ. And i know there will be people who say "If you hate the story, why do you play?"

I play for the gameplay, i enjoy all the jobs at a high level and i have fun playing them. I know its a tough concept, knowing that people play a game for multiple reasons.

You want the game to cater to your desire and needs. It isn't going to happen. Stop this absurdly long troll thread. I left long ago and can't believe you continue to drag people into this absolutely pointless conversation. The game will ALWAYS be based on a MAIN STORY. Deal with it. Suck it up. If you don't like it play something else. Stop trying to form the game in the image you would like to see. It will NEVER happen.

[Berret_Snow]

ARR should be heavily condensed honestly. It's an useless slog and it just makes people want to quit with how dragged out and full of filler it is.

First time I played FF14 I ended up quitting because I just didn't want to deal with ARR story anymore, it was so abysmally bad. When I came back I just bought a story skip just because I didn't want to deal with how pathetic the ARR story is. For the part of ARR that I played(until level 50 or so), I felt like a UPS driver delivering packages to people all over the world rather than doing something actually useful.

I've invited 10 irl friends to this game, none of them remained with it. They like the game, the gameplay, the combat, dungeons, they despise the ARR story.

"The world is going to end RIGHT NOW if we don't do something about it but first bring me some eggs from the other side of the world, now come back, oops, I forgot to ask for milk, go back!"
After leaving the game for half a year after I finish ARR"s horrid patches I jumped into HW and fell in love with the game all over again since the story is amazing. ARR's story can use some work, and you know what? I'll forgive ARR's story and I'll go through it again and I will once Hrothgar are released, but the patches? Please tell me that they are condensing them because they are just horrible.

[SerLuke]

You want the game to cater to your desire and needs. It isn't going to happen. Stop this absurdly long troll thread. I left long ago and can't believe you continue to drag people into this absolutely pointless conversation. The game will ALWAYS be based on a MAIN STORY. Deal with it. Suck it up. If you don't like it play something else. Stop trying to form the game in the image you would like to see. It will NEVER happen.

This, so much this.

[Crystal_Raven]

You want the game to cater to your desire and needs. It isn't going to happen. Stop this absurdly long troll thread. I left long ago and can't believe you continue to drag people into this absolutely pointless conversation. The game will ALWAYS be based on a MAIN STORY. Deal with it. Suck it up. If you don't like it play something else. Stop trying to form the game in the image you would like to see. It will NEVER happen.

No one is asking for the ARR story to be removed. However, a lot of that story is filler and junk quests that sent you from NPC A to NPC B. There are a LOT of main story quests in ARR that can be condensed, or outright removed because they serve no actual purpose other than dragging it out.

ARR turns off a lot of potential new customers. From personal experience I can tell you that ARR turned off 10 potential new customers that I know personally. Going through the ARR MSQ has made them quit, even if they enjoy everything else about the game. And they don't want to buy a story skip either because if ARR is that bad and dragged out, what's the guarantee what comes after it isn't the same?

FF games are always based on a story, HW story is alright, SB story is alright. ARR story is disgusting and needs to be completely reworked.

ARR in a nutshell:
THE WORLD IS ENDING, WE MUST ACT NOW, oh but go to gridania and ask for some eggs, then to limsa and get some tools then come back to me. Oh you're back? I wanted to some other stuff too, oh btw THE WORLD IS ENDING AND WE MUST ACT NOW, but go get me my stuff first.

[Emmanellain]

FF games are always based on a story, HW story is alright, SB story is alright. ARR story is disgusting and needs to be completely reworked.

ARR in a nutshell:
THE WORLD IS ENDING, WE MUST ACT NOW, oh but go to gridania and ask for some eggs, then to limsa and get some tools then come back to me. Oh you're back? I wanted to some other stuff too, oh btw THE WORLD IS ENDING AND WE MUST ACT NOW, but go get me my stuff first.

This, so much this, and the writers were even aware of this.
I will never forget the damn quest from Tataru in the walking sands where she asked us to go pick up leaves in Coerthas for tea to "soothe the nerves" of the other scions cause they were moving HQ, she even told our character not to look glum.
I am very, very happy, that the story in the newer expansions are condensed and don't have *sniff the chocobo* sidequests anymore. But ARR needs some damn SERIOUS rework.
It's clear that they learned a lot from the experience, but they need to do something about it if they want more customers.