New Player Experience Sucks! - Impending Expansion Problems

[SerLuke]

Do we have a source for this?

As much as the quests could definitely use some streamlining, it's a more intricate process than just cutting out every 'tedious' quest and making it a sidequest. A lot of them move the plot forward - painfully slowly perhaps, but they still need to happen at that point in the story.

No, you don't need to sniff the chocobo, but you do need to get the Doman refugees onto that cart and traveling to Ul'dah. You can't remove that quest, you have to rewrite it to alter the point-by-point objectives.

Going through the entire plot like that would be quite an intensive process.

It was at one of the recent Fanfest Q and As

[Anselmet]

Remove the MSQ slog and your stuck with the level and gearing slog. Gearing up in this game is only fast and easy if you got gil or crafting on your side other wise its months of running dungeons until your eyes bleed.

I'm a little confused by this statement. Atm due to running an overbloated msq players speed through levels especially if they are on a preferred world. Cutting it down would slow you down, but as is you're only running a dungeon once, maybe twice if you're unlucky and out leveling your gear quickly. A way to fix this when removing the msq bloat would be to add gear or merely make a point to have a quest that shows you where to buy from vendors in the city states. That gear is cheap and you don't need hq to do arr.

Do we have a source for this?

Going through the entire plot like that would be quite an intensive process.

Tokyo fanfest, I believe is where it was said. If it wasn't there then it was at Paris fanfest

[Krojack]

Playing with a friend of mine, returner from ARR content, I can already feel how demoralized he is trying to catch up in time. To actually reach relevant content he has to go through a backlog of slog, and I have a feeling he never will actually reach the content that he has paid for, and I have a feeling a lot of new players have the same point of view, and will also never likely reach content in time (without paying for a skip) to actually play the new expansion. I do not think a skip is a good thing, not only for the intimidating price, but because these players cannot go back and do the story any longer, I would assume (I have never actually used one).

They feel like they are just wasting time. I think there needs to be something in place, to alleviate this feeling. In WoW a new player has a boost, but can reach the relevant (expansion) content, and can go back and do older content at their own leisure. Granted, FF is very story based, and centered around your character (WoL). I think a way to go back and do the old story content (expansions) to catch up and do later, would be a good way to get players to relevant content, and keep them playing the game, while being able to go back and do the story content when they want to, so they don't miss out, and can get the full context of the latest story arch.

The more expansions and story content, added just make this worse, and worse.

I had a friend start fresh back in Feb and they are already caught up. They even took time going though the story, yes ALL of ARR story.

If you skip cut scenes you can get caught up in a few days easy.

[VirusOnline]

Playing with a friend of mine, returner from ARR content, I can already feel how demoralized he is trying to catch up in time. To actually reach relevant content he has to go through a backlog of slog, and I have a feeling he never will actually reach the content that he has paid for, and I have a feeling a lot of new players have the same point of view, and will also never likely reach content in time (without paying for a skip) to actually play the new expansion. I do not think a skip is a good thing, not only for the intimidating price, but because these players cannot go back and do the story any longer, I would assume (I have never actually used one).

There's plenty of time to catch up between now and the expansion, coming from someone who worked and went to school full time I was able to clear all the of the MSQ just shy of two weeks.
The idea of the skip is under the understood condition that you cannot go back because one has 'experienced' the story via the skip potion for the purposes of not having to bother with it/getting to end game content quicker. You can however, skip or not, view the cutscenes of any story mission when you want. Anyone who skips or wants to be 'at the end game content right now' usually has very little desire to go back to do story missions.

They feel like they are just wasting time. I think there needs to be something in place, to alleviate this feeling. In WoW a new player has a boost, but can reach the relevant (expansion) content, and can go back and do older content at their own leisure. Granted, FF is very story based, and centered around your character (WoL). I think a way to go back and do the old story content (expansions) to catch up and do later, would be a good way to get players to relevant content, and keep them playing the game, while being able to go back and do the story content when they want to, so they don't miss out, and can get the full context of the latest story arch.

The more expansions and story content, added just make this worse, and worse.

WoW is nothing like FFXIV in terms of story. Its story is literally non-existant. Quests exist merely on the basis of level for the most part. It's what makes WoW disgustingly lacking and stale as a new player. A new player can easily become lost and disoriented and find themselves merely spamming dungeons all day long for the sake of leveling. The 'relevant story content in WoW is a joke, it's near nonexistant. Relevant story content in WoW is the equivalent of a transition scene between expansions. This lack of storytelling/general quest direction in WoW was even more prevalent back when I started playing it back in The Burning Crusade.

For a new player in FFXIV, they are given what WoW lacks - quest direction and storytelling. Never is a new player lost for there is a quest always waiting to guide them along the main timeline of events.

In all honesty, it sounds as if your friend simply should take a skip potion since they have no desire for the story (at the current moment) or paying for it. He wants to be at the end, now, with you rather than taking his character through its own journey because you are able to do things that he cannot and thus feels they're paying for nothing. And this sentiment is ok, there's nothing wrong with it. This is just how I view you and your friend's situation. A skip potion costs money for this reason, because if every new player could skip to the end it would be catastrophic for the game's experience. Rather, there would be no story experience at all and that is exactly what WoW is even without the skip potion.

[Penthea]

In all honesty, it sounds as if your friend simply should take a skip potion since they have no desire for the story (at the current moment) or paying for it. He wants to be at the end, now, with you rather than taking his character through its own journey because you are able to do things that he cannot and thus feels they're paying for nothing.

OP is actually a WoW refugee and is also the supposed friend they're speaking of. They really should change their first post given they admitted this themselves and it makes their point quite misleading. That isn't to say their opinion isn't valid, but it's a bit disingenuous to try to appear to be concerned over a friend's gaming experience when it's actually just about yourself.

For a new player in FFXIV, they are given what WoW lacks - quest direction and storytelling. Never is a new player lost for there is a quest always waiting to guide them along the main timeline of events.

A criticism I had for WoW long before I started playing FFXIV and when I was still a Blizzard fangirl, is the sheer lack of lore presented in the game, and the little that was there was presented badly. Up until Legion there was almost no class lore even though players were asking for class quests (there were only a handful for several expansions) as far back as since Vanilla. I don't know about now, but up to WoD if you wanted to find out about lore...you had to go to external sources. You had to read wikis, comic-books and novels. I expect it's still mostly like this because I seriously doubt Blizzard changed how lore is presented in the old content.

This actually lead to an expansion's major character and final boss being misunderstood by 90% of the player population. The game presented Garrosh as little other than a boring two dimensional bad guy who was moody and power hungry. The novel presented him as a tragic hero who was desperate for power to protect the people who were counting on him to lead the Horde. That Blizzard chose to hide the motivations of such a major player of the expansion in a novel is absolutely ridiculous. The equivalent of that would be hiding the fact that Nidhogg is enraged over an unforgivable betrayal, and letting players continue to think he hates all non-dragonkin just because he likes being a bad dude.

You don't need to go to external sources to understand what's happening in FFXIV. Even the events before 2.0 are explained sufficiently enough for new players to understand the world they're presented with. On top of that it's not just the msq that has story. Literally every scrap of content has a story. I was blown away that even crafters and gatherers had their own class quests with very well written stories.

That this game is so rich in lore that you can experience for yourself is one of the major factors that lead to me quitting WoW. So much of what I wanted from WoW is in this game.

[Wynn_Storm]

OP is actually a WoW refugee and is also the supposed friend they're speaking of. They really should change their first post given they admitted this themselves and it makes their point quite misleading. That isn't to say their opinion isn't valid, but it's a bit disingenuous to try to appear to be concerned over a friend's gaming experience when it's actually just about yourself.

There is a few things i find wrong with your post. You make it sound like being a previous WoW player is a bad thing. The title of wow refugee just sounds bad, and especially in the context you used it. Also sure they lied about it being for a friend, but i don't think that really makes it disingenuous, the problem is still the same whether it be for the OP or if it really was for the friend. Don't you think that the reason the OP lied is so they wouldn't get ridiculed? That just shows the fear of players being afraid to speak their minds, because they know its an unpopular opinion and they will get trashed for it.

Regardless, the MSQ is a problem, even though a lot of people on here don't think it is. But the forums is a tiny minority of the playerbase, so i wouldn't take it too seriously honestly.

People are not thinking about the game in the long run of things. In two expansions from now, we are still going to be making new players go through 10 year old super dated content that obviously shows its age?

And when i sit in novice network and i see sprouts complain about MSQ or people that ask when can they play DRK or AST, i have to tell them in 500 quests or so.

The fact that people can unironically argue that its a good thing is just beyond me.

I'm personally done with this topic, as people are just going back and forth and its been going on for almost 4 days.

Tl;Dr trim all the BS quests from ARR.

[Penthea]

There is a few things i find wrong with your post. You make it sound like being a previous WoW player is a bad thing.

I'm a previous WoW player. I played it for over ten years.

The title of wow refugee just sounds bad, and especially in the context you used it.

They used the term themselves. I personally don't think it necessarily means a bad thing. I tend to think it means WoW players who quit during BFA. I quit at the end of WoD, before the term was commonly used.

Also sure they lied about it being for a friend, but i don't think that really makes it disingenuous, the problem is still the same whether it be for the OP or if it really was for the friend. Don't you think that the reason the OP lied is so they wouldn't get ridiculed? That just shows the fear of players being afraid to speak their minds, because they know its an unpopular opinion and they will get trashed for it.

It's disingenuous because they're claiming someone else cannot catch up to them, the implication of which is OP has already gotten to a late stage of the game themselves and is sitting there just waiting for their friend, and are speaking with the supposed knowledge that they probably cannot catch up. Well this isn't the case given OP was on about themselves thinking they would be unable to catch up before expansion launch.

I'm not sure how they would avoid getting thrashed for an unpopular opinion if they appear to agree with a friend who supposedly has said opinion.

Regardless, the MSQ is a problem, even though a lot of people on here don't think it is. But the forums is a tiny minority of the playerbase, so i wouldn't take it too seriously honestly.

I love the msq but it certainly has issues. The largest being the lvl 50 patch content. A lot of the quests require an excessive amount of travelling and teleporting, which could easily be fixed by having cutscenes bring you to the next zone (some in the game already do). Vesper Bay is awkward to get to. I know for lore reasons it does not have an aetheryte, and for this reason I disagree with it getting one, but that doesn't stop more ports having boats that go there. Maybe even give it an airship dock so it can be travelled to instantly from every city.

People are not thinking about the game in the long run of things. In two expansions from now, we are still going to be making new players go through 10 year old super dated content that obviously shows its age?

I imagine at some point SE would release a digested version of the story that new players can view, and they will begin the story at a later point if they choose to. But I doubt we will see something like this for at least another two expansions. 70 lvls isn't really that much. I know plenty of new players who did it in less than a month. Some in just two weeks. ShB is two months away. OP has loads of time.

And when i sit in novice network and i see sprouts complain about MSQ or people that ask when can they play DRK or AST, i have to tell them in 500 quests or so.

And by saying 500 quests you make it worse than it seems. Some of these quests take two seconds to do. Why not just tell them "they're unlocked when you reach the next expansion"?

And sorry but just because a player wants something doesn't mean they should be able to get it now. It's very common for mmorpgs to have classes that are unlocked later in the game. Why is it a bad thing in this game?

The fact that people can unironically argue that its a good thing is just beyond me.

I'm not saying the above is a good thing but how are you supposed to even unlock those classes if you can't even enter Ishgard?

[Anselmet]

I was refering to end game gear, leveling gear goes fast. New players are also not going to be close to crafting end game crafted gear after reaching cap. As a Omni crafter I can honestly say forget crafting HQ end game gear beyond a certain point if you only level one crafter as you will be relying heavily upon luck. If a new player joins the game hits 80 in shadowbringers 6 months after release their going to get a rude awakening that without crafted or mb bought gear their going to be running dungeons for a couple weeks easy to catch up. Tomes as always will start with a weekly cap of 450 until lifted they will need tome or end game crafted gear just to enter the first 8 and 24 man raids.

There is a reason wow started dropping high end gear on people the way they are doing now. Players got tired of running dungeon after dungeon after dungeon as a way to catch up.

Thanks for the clarification, but right now don't we have multiple of ways of getting gear? I mean it can be slow but unlocking omega and doing the dungeons that unlock in 4.1-4.5 usually net enough tomes for 360 gear that jumping up in ilvl isnt too cancerous. I'll admit that se could do better about dropping hints on how to gain gear after hitting the cap, but once the know how is there its not too difficult to get gear.

I've never played wow to the end of the game, but i thought some of the complaints these days is how easy it is to get high end gear? I'm not against it perse as long as it doesn't ruin the mb or devalue hard to obtain gear. But imo squares usual content schedule allows players to catch up in ilvl pretty quickly.

[van_arn]

I have little interest in getting new players caught up to top tier content, especially if Square is going to keep doing an abysmal job with gating that top tier content. I only want to be able to tell a new player it's not a fedexing visual novel for 100+ hours before they can play the actual game.

I still don't see the problem in just starting a new player at the gates of Heavensward. They're already skipped past 1.0, so why not just move the starting point to 3.0?

Heck, even the story wouldn't suffer. Just watching the trailer for Heavensward tells you you're on the run from your "home" and you've taken refuge somewhere. That's an easy hook for anyone to latch onto, and the story of Heavensward does a decent job filling in the gaps. This also solves the problems of new players being unable to play DRK or AST (both of which are common complaints) as well as a better example of the game in its current form. Even the MSQ is less scatterbrained past the gates of heavensward; this might actually be a better place to introduce players to the story than ARR.

New players that want even more context have the inn and NG+, much like players look to youtube for 1.0 story nowadays.

Skip potions on the mog station aren't really an excuse for a poor player experience, and I really don't see "they can pay extra to make it bearable" as a valid alternative. Perhaps at minimum just dump a level 50 job/story skip with recruit a friend. Or with an upgrade from the starter edition.

[Lersayil]

I don't think anybody argues about trimming down useless fillers in ARR... but that isn't what is being suggested here, is it? From what I'm getting its more about outright skipping and unlinking content from the MSQ.

I have a personal theory (totally unproven, and based on my anectodal exp mind you) that the MSQ is actually working as an unintended filter, and has much to do with the overall type of people that make it to endgame and stay for the long haul. For better or worse, depending on your viewpoint.

Anyways as exlusionist it may sound, if SE wants to keep things this story focused, its their choice. It might exclude some people that get burnt out during the MSQ, but if they don't want to appeal to that crowd thats their business.

And as a disclaimer, yes I've also lost a number of friends due to MSQ burnout, but give the type of game FF14 is, I think thats fine, as I don't think they would've liked the game anyways if the MSQ was enough to scare them away.