When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

[Souljacker]

You might be limiting your thinking to the most absolute bare-bones minimal rotation you could be doing in an encounter (and that's what a lot of folks end up doing if they are using a controller). In addition to that rotation, there's also all situational actions that don't fit into a rotation but still can be useful at times, the role actions that offer buffs and debuffs and potions and medicines to weave in and out. Add to that the generic buttons for limit break, sprinting, duty actions, marking actions, and that's just stuff you might need in an encounter. You'll also need space for actions that aren't necessarily essential in battle but still should be hotkeyed, like travel buttons or your mount.

SE could stand to sit down with the kits every job has and decide whether or not they really need some of the things in there. They have started compressing some tiered spells together which is a good start, but there's still a lot of kit that could be pruned and other abilities either buffed to compensate or the encounters retuned with the new parameters.

Of course, the encounters being basically nothing more than a 'memorize the dodgefest pattern' is why our kits expanded to the bloated level they did in the first place, but that's a wholly different discussion.

[HyoMinPark]

You might be limiting your thinking to the most absolute bare-bones minimal rotation you could be doing in an encounter (and that's what a lot of folks end up doing if they are using a controller). In addition to that rotation, there's also all situational actions that don't fit into a rotation but still can be useful at times, the role actions that offer buffs and debuffs and potions and medicines to weave in and out. Add to that the generic buttons for limit break, sprinting, duty actions, marking actions, and that's just stuff you might need in an encounter. You'll also need space for actions that aren't necessarily essential in battle but still should be hotkeyed, like travel buttons or your mount.

SE could stand to sit down with the kits every job has and decide whether or not they really need some of the things in there. They have started compressing some tiered spells together which is a good start, but there's still a lot of kit that could be pruned and other abilities either buffed to compensate or the encounters retuned with the new parameters.

Of course, the encounters being basically nothing more than a 'memorize the dodgefest pattern' is why our kits expanded to the bloated level they did in the first place, but that's a wholly different discussion.

I play with a controller. Always have. For 3.5 years. No, I am not thinking about the “absolute bare-bones”—I’m thinking of the necessary buttons for battle content. There are no instances where you’ll have 50+ buttons on your hotbars.

Role Actions: with the exceptions of tanks and healers, DPS have role actions they do not need/will rarely ever need (see: Physical Ranged Role Actions, Melee DPS Crutch). Those that you do not need you can put somewhere on your hotbars that you do not need to access as frequently if you really want to assign them to a slot. Personally, I have actions like this keybound to my Numpad, back when I played on PS4 with a Bluetooth Keyboard, and now that I’m on PC. Works just fine for situational skills I’ll use maybe once or twice a fight (e.g., Head Graze in O3S or O7S).

Pots/Medicines: these only matter if you’re doing end-game raiding. Otherwise, they don’t need to be on your bar.

Sprint: Controller users can set one of their analog sticks (R3 or L3) to Execute Macro #98/Execute Macro #99 for Sprint. That’s what I’ve done. Sprint is not on my main bar—just my auxiliary cooldown bar so I can see its CD timer.

Duty Actions: Duty Actions can be used with R3/L3 for controller users. You don’t need them on your hotbar—there’s very few fights where they’re used anyways, if you consider all the different duties in this game.

Marking Actions: I have these set up on a horizontal hotbar and keybound if I really need to use them.
Travel buttons/mount: See above. Otherwise, you can also just open the Start menu in game and use them from there—with controller or KB/M.


While there are skills that could stand to be deleted (e.g., Repelling Shot, Freeze, Tether, Blank Shot, Fluid Aura—just to name a few), there’s no need for mass consolidation like there is in PvP.

[Schan]

oh okay. we're bringing this up again...
I disagree with consolidating combos into 1 button each.

To me personally it's less engaging. yes you can argue the end result is the same but for some reason having to press different buttons makes it feel more engaging. I have to pay more attention to what i'm doing.

Also i'm a filthy mouse clicker so to me personally 1-2-3 is VERY different from 1-1-1

Also I find it amusing how one of the complaints regarding Lancer is that it only has to press 2 buttons while leveling up and that makes it boring but here we are asking for every class to just spam 1-2 (3?) buttons in every content lol

[Sated]

Would love to see them consolidated, right now it's like being asked to remember to inhale and exhale - combos are just a thing that's going in the background after 50 when they start adding more interesting/developed mechanics to jobs.

So maybe while players are leveling they can leave the combos on separate buttons to make it feel like they're actually interesting, and then when you start unlocking the job's core mechanics they can add a consolidated QoL combo button that players can choose to use or not.

[Souljacker]

I'm not really sure what you are arguing other than you have a different setup than I do. Nothing you said suggests that I shouldn't have the number of buttons I do as the game currently is right now. You just configure your UI differently because of using a controller.

I don't use a controller, therefore all my skills are keybound in various different ways on different hotbars than yours are.

In the end you didn't actually argue that the skills aren't used (except some strange idea that most of the role actions are basically useless, I can assure you they are not). You just argued that the skills I mentioned could be configured some way on a controller that has absolutely nothing to do with my buttons in my UI. As I said before, since maybe you missed it, some skills are used more frequently than others, but that does NOT mean that those skills that aren't as frequently used can just be dropped or not configured. We are all still expected to have them available and quickly accessible.

Pots/Medicines: these only matter if you’re doing end-game raiding. Otherwise, they don’t need to be on your bar.

No, that's not the only place these are useful. They are useful anywhere you might get tagged with a silence, such as in Pagos, for example. It's also nice to have potions available for emergencies when a healer can't pay attention to you right away. Not to mention folks that still use placeholder lesser potions in their rotations to keep their muscle memory in their openers.

Duty Actions: Duty Actions can be used with R3/L3 for controller users. You don’t need them on your hotbar—there’s very few fights where they’re used anyways, if you consider all the different duties in this game.

When there is visual spam all over the screen it's a million times more efficient to tap a keybind than to try to find where the mouse cursor is to hover over a duty action button and click it. I can't believe you would even suggest such a thing and that three other people agreed with you. Good for you that you can do some magic with a controller stick. Keyboard users will still have to keybind in some way and that means a button. Therefore ~50 buttons.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm not really sure what you are arguing other than you have a different setup than I do. Nothing you said suggests that I shouldn't have the number of buttons I do as the game currently is right now. You just configure your UI differently because of using a controller.

I don't use a controller, therefore all my skills are keybound in various different ways on different hotbars than yours are.

Okay, and yet, my original point still stands - you don't have a job that uses ~50 buttons worth of actions in any given combat. At least, you have not actually named one, as I asked prior. And I mean all ~50 of them. You listed many situational buttons that may or may not even be useful in most battle scenarios (like teleports and mounts).

Even if I wasn't on controller, I would still find far more efficient ways to make use of my hotbar space. That wouldn't include cluttering them with things that don't need to be there. If I don't regularly use a button, I don't have it on my hotbars. That's my logic. If it's something niche or situational, I have it on an auxiliary bar/keybind, or I just access the main menu for it. But I also dislike clutter in general - I like to keep my HUD as clean as possible.

I'm only mentioning my controller usage because it seems to boggle your mind that controller users can be efficient with their hotbar space while also considering what items they actually need on them - this is just what I'm inferring from your tone in your previous post. That being said, controllers are not wanting for space, what with 8 crossbars of 16 buttons each. In addition to being able to keybind horizontal and vertical hotbars should one opt to also use a keyboard (even if it's for things that aren't needed that frequently).

In the end you didn't actually argue that the skills aren't used (except some strange idea that most of the role actions are basically useless, I can assure you they are not). You just argued that the skills I mentioned could be configured some way on a controller that has absolutely nothing to do with my buttons in my UI. As I said before, since maybe you missed it, some skills are used more frequently than others, but that does NOT mean that those skills that aren't as frequently used can just be dropped or not configured. We are all still expected to have them available and quickly accessible.

First and foremost, I can assure you that outside of extremely niche situations, 4/10 of the physical ranged DPS role actions are useless - I've never used Arm, Knee, or Foot Graze because there's simply no need to in the majority of content (and I've never heard of a melee DPS actually using Crutch). You do not need binds or heavies in any sort of content that actually matters, and stuns are already brought by melee and tanks (aside from the fact that most bosses are immune to them anyways); silence is arguably the only one that is relatively useful out of the four Graze skills - I used it a grand total of two times where it actually made a difference - O3S and O7S on adds. Peloton is only really useful for running faster in zones, dungeons, and 24-mans. We could comfortably use only 5 of our role actions - Refresh, Tactician, Palisade, Invigorate, and Second Wind - and rarely be wanting for more outside of the two Savage fights I mentioned previously (in which case I usually swapped out Invigorate).

Eureka aside, the CC abilities serve very little purpose in most content. Eureka doesn't make up the majority of the content in this game - it's a small niche where they actually allowed CC to be useful, but that's not the case in most content. This is the developer's own doing; they opted to make most CC abilities worth very little.

If you're running out of space, reconfigure your UI/keybinds better. That's all I can really say. I know many KB/M users that don't share you complaint of "~50 buttons on my hotbars that are needed to be accessible at all times".

No, that's not the only place these are useful. They are useful anywhere you might get tagged with a silence, such as in Pagos, for example. It's also nice to have potions available for emergencies when a healer can't pay attention to you right away. Not to mention folks that still use placeholder lesser potions in their rotations to keep their muscle memory in their openers.

Pagos is one piece of content out of many; the only other one you can argue for is PotD/HoH with regards to things like Echo Drops, etc.. Other than that, in the vast majority, they make very little difference. As for the HP potions, what is +6,000 HP for a pool of 53,000 for a DPS? Maybe one auto-attack, if even that. The only ones I've heard of being used are sometimes Super-ethers were used by my healers during Savage/Ultimate progression - but they're dropped for clears because they share a timer with infusions, which they preferred to use instead for the damage boost.

I don't know of many people that use lesser potions to maintain muscle memory for their openers. Speaking for myself, I don't. And I don't really need to.

When there is visual spam all over the screen it's a million times more efficient to tap a keybind than to try to find where the mouse cursor is to hover over a duty action button and click it. I can't believe you would even suggest such a thing and that three other people agreed with you. Good for you that you can do some magic with a controller stick. Keyboard users will still have to keybind in some way and that means a button. Therefore ~50 buttons.

I guess they agreed with me because they also agree that you're lumping in a bunch of pointless/situational things into this "button bloat" in order to fuel your rhetoric? Or they realize that Duty Actions are, again, present in very few pieces of content? That's the only assumption I can really make there.

As I suggested before, if you're struggling with your keybinds, consider reconfiguring them. Perhaps invest in an MMO mouse because I think they allow for more keybinds - I hear a lot of good things about them. It sounds like to me that you have a bunch of needless things configured that really don't need to be.



As an aside, I have a message from a friend of mine that they would like for me to pass along to you in response to your response before this one:

Before Stormblood, I played MCH comfortably, on a controller, across 2 hotbars. Everything I absolutely needed to play the job were my hotbar 1 and 2. 3 was a mostly redundant hotbar I put the unique PvP skills we had back then, with some of my frequent-use PvE skills; if I got rid of redundancies and skills I just never touched in PvP, and if I used the PvP hotbar settings (which still exist, but aren't needed or usable anymore), I easily didn't need #3. 4 is emotes I use a lot, more a QoL shortcut and hardly a necessity. 5 is job change shortcuts, again QoL, not necessity. 6 is blank and always has been. 7 forms the 2 separate hotbar shortcuts accessible by L2 + R2/R2 +L2 combinations and those are just mount shortcuts, Teleport/Return, and 2 Limit Breaks where I only need 1, but let's consider 7 a necessity for the sake of argument. 8 is still the default system menu that I never use, so I could make space there if needed as well.

All that aside, only the first 2 hotbars are what I use and need to play any and every job (with only PLD currently low on space, and I even found a workaround for that), and after the Stormblood skill pruning, I actually have room to spare on some of them, because, as mentioned before, I don't need every role action, and if I ever do, hey guess what? Open spots on my main 2 hotbars, 4 hotbars full of things I don't absolutely need or can access just as easily via menus, and one completely blank one. And I don't have any more or less skills /actions than any other player. I'm aware PC has fewer slots per hotbar, but I'm aware they have 12 hotbars compared to m+y 8 cross hotbars, not all of which am I fully using. So where is this perceived lack of space coming from?

P.S. I don't do barebones anything just because I use a controller. Please don't make blanket statements implying controller players are somehow inefficient or incapable because of using one.

[Jonnycbad]

Perhaps a modified case-by-case version of the PVP system can be implemented. Using DRG for example:

-Jump and Spineshatter Dive TRANSFORMS into Mirage Dive after being used. +1 button
-Doom Spike TRANSFORMS into Sonic Thrust after being used. +1 button
-Fang and Claw TRANSORMS into Wheeling Thrust when using it after Full Thrust.+1 button
-Wheeling Thrust TRANSFORMS into Fang and Claw when using it after Chaos Thrust.

-Impulse Drive removed, True Thrust combos into both Disembowel and Vorpal Thrust. +1 button
-Heavy Thrust removed, Vorpal Thrust increase DRG's damage by 10% for 30 seconds. +1 button

Bam, 6 skills consolidated, GCDs remain the same (except for the 2 BoTD finishers and braindead AoE "combo"), DRG's 2 independent combo paths only split after the first GCD (no reason to have 2 separate openining GCDs that only differ in potency) and for the 2 finishers, which always follow eachother. DRG's buff is gained later in the combo, but who cares because every other melee with a DMG buff gains their buff mid-combo too (MNK, SAM, WAR)

[Ilan]

"I throw everything into my hotbars that i don't even need, we have a button bloat SE fix this"

I think SE should put mounts, teleport and all that other useless stuff into a combo action button.

[Rowde]

Yeah ppl always blow this out of proportion.

What OP is asking for is for 1-2-3 combos to be consolidated to a single button that has an icon that CHANGES with each input. Players would still be required to press this one button 3 times. A macro is a worse solution because it absolutely locks you into a 1-2-3. The changing icon would still allow for oGCD weaves in between GCD inputs.

I posted this before in another thread:

WAR would have 3 combo buttons: Storm's Eye, Storm's Path and Butcher Block. Consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
PLD would have 3 combo buttons as well: Royal Authority, Goring Blade and Rage of Halone. Again, consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
DRK would only have 2 combo buttons: Soul Eater and Power Slash. Consolidating 5 buttons down to 2.

So on PLD for example, there would be 3 buttons on the hotbar that would change as such.
Fast Blade >> Savage Blade >> Rage of Halone
Fast Blade >> Riot Blade >> Goring Blade
Fast Blade >> Riot Blade >> Royal Authority

And technically this would still allow for repetition of one-two combos, for whatever reason (assume maybe PLD or DRK want to spam Riot/Syphon for MP), as the Rage of Halone Combo would reset to Fast Blade as soon as Riot Blade is pressed because that combo string can no longer be continued.


For Melee DPS, DRG could get the most dramatic benefit (if Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust are tacked on to the combos... which they should be).
They'd have 3 combo buttons: Full Thrust and Chaos Thrust (which actually branch into F&G and Wheeling), and Sonic Thrust. Consolidating 10 buttons down to 3.

The two single-target combos would go:
True Thrust >> Vorpal Thrust >> Full Thrust >> Fang and Claw >> Wheeling Thrust
Impulse Drive >> Disembowel >> Chaos Thrust >> Wheeling Thrust >> Fang and Claw

NIN would get 3 combo buttons: Aoelian Edge, Shadow Fang and Armor Crush. Probably the least impact though since their combos don't branch until the last hit... it would only consolidate 5 buttons down to 3.

SAM would get 3 combo buttons: Gekko, Kasha and Yukikaze. Consolidating 6 buttons down to 3.
MNK could get 3 combos buttons as well: Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker. Consolidating 9 buttons down to 3.

The only difference with MNK is that the combos would progress based on the form, so they would go like this:

Dragon Kick >> Twin Snakes > Snap Punch (flank boosted attacks)
Bootshine >> True Strike >> Demolish (rear boosted attacks)
Arm of the Destroyer >> One Ilm Punch >> Rockbreaker ("special" attacks)

Regardless of whether Dragon, Boot or Arm is pressed, all 3 buttons would progress to their next step. If a form were to drop then all combo buttons would reset to the first step.


What makes MNK and SAM outliers though are Perfect Balance and Meikyo Shisui... and tbh... I'd rather see those 2 abilities get a rework so this system could work for all 7 jobs (8 assuming Gunbreaker will follow suit with at least an enmity combos and a damage combo).

Once again, this change would primarily only effect Melee based characters with 1-2-3 combos. Physical ranged DPS, Casters and Healers don't generally have combos.

However, separately I think there is room to consolidate some misc buttons based on Procs and "Stances"

For example:
- on RDM have Impact replace Jolt on Procs similar to how Ruin IV replaces Ruin II for SMN.
- on DRK have Blood Weapon change to Blood Price when Grit is active. (And yes, I realize that right now they're two separate CDs, but eh... not losing much by having them share a button and timer based on Stance. I can think of ZERO times where I've been so desperate for MP and saved the day by switching back to tank stance to activate Blood Price to clutch out a win.)
- on SMN and SCH have pet skills change based on what pet is summoned. Just have buttons for Pet Auto, Pet Skill 1, Pet Skill 2, Pet Skill 3 that change based on what pet is currently active. This would make playing Obey so much easier.

[Haxaan]

Idle Mode, please Look Forward To It!