Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[van_arn]

your party is a really crappy tutorial. Majority of players are not that good, and thier strategies are not consistent from group to group. The way you tank leveling up is pretty different than when you are over geared. Just like players arent always that skilled, people who give advice are often not that skilled. They are often wrong or dont understand the situation. The concept that the majority opinion is going to be the correct one is often false, and more based on feeling than analysis.

Welcome to the liar's club phase of the tanktorial: you learn the strategies that are being used by the general public, experiment with these strategies, and adjust those strategies to fit your current party.

When you have a solid foundation you've built up during the expansion, then you can step into post-expansion content (such as The Burn) with a degree more confidence than you would fresh from HoH.

If a player can't do this, then they shouldn't be tanking anyway. By "this," I mean "adjusting to the current party."

Tanks are in demand, but they aren't special: I'm not going to hold onto someone clearly not suited to tanking because they're some magical unicorn. They fill the role of their job to the satisfaction of their party or, like any other role, they can be fired.

By the party. The party that outranks them.

[Hash_Browns]

Welcome to the liar's club phase of the tanktorial: you learn the strategies that are being used by the general public, experiment with these strategies, and adjust those strategies to fit your current party.

When you have a solid foundation you've built up during the expansion, then you can step into post-expansion content (such as The Burn) with a degree more confidence than you would fresh from HoH.

If a player can't do this, then they shouldn't be tanking anyway. By "this," I mean "adjusting to the current party."

Tanks are in demand, but they aren't special: I'm not going to hold onto someone clearly not suited to tanking because they're some magical unicorn. They fill the role of their job to the satisfaction of their party or, like any other role, they can be fired.

By the party. The party that outranks them.

Only thing I don't agree with you on here is that you can apply this to every class, not just tank.
Pull your weight, or meet the door, and by "pull your weight" I mean "do more then the minimum".

[Aurelius2625]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

[van_arn]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

*shrug* I don't deny kicking a tank that refuses to fast pull is, as you'd say, a "dick move" but I acknowledge it's the prerogative of the party to make that "dick move" or not.

The votes went through, so two people agreed the tank needed to go. So they went.

[Awha]

OP's group is kinda dicks, tbh. If a tank is NOT comfortable with doing something...then don't force them to? Jesus. If I queue in DUTY FINDER, I accept that it's going to be RANDOMS that I'm with, that will play DIFFERENTLY than I do. I'll probably bitch on discord, but that's about it. I'll stick it out because I can't EXPECT people to play the way that I WANT to.

Why don't you just find a tank friend, and make them do what you want? I mean... if you want someone to play how you want, shouldn't you make a party finder for it, or find people that play the way that you do? Instead of... I don't know, expecting RANDOM people to fit YOUR criteria?

That's as ridiculous as running savage in PARTY FINDER and expecting them to DO WHAT YOUR STATIC DOES. See how that's weird? Hopefully the tank got a much more understanding and better party than your friends' group. May they be blessed by slow tanks that don't pull much, to temper their impatience.

Hell, I'm a tank that pulls wall to wall, but if a healer tells me that they can't do it, I won't do it. I'll grumble a bit, but I'm not going to make them do something they do or aren't comfy doing. If I'm wanting to be speed racer, I'll grab my static to do it.

I think I finally understand why people kick people from PF that ask what the pug strat is, because they assume the person is going to be a raging wiener about "Uh, that's DUMB! Do it MY way!"

I mean they did me, as I said in the OP I was the replacement tank they picked up after asking in discord. Now the question if it was a dick move or not is not really a factor here since that is subjective. The reason behind the thread was simply because I got confused about the different levels of tolerance between roles some players in this game have. So I figured it would be an interesting point of discussion. It is interesting to see how vague rules or expectations regarding the DF can create vastly different expectations between the community, and the funny thing is either said can create an argument as to why their way should be valid, but this confusion is really only an issue because SE refuses to establish a clear expectation and use of the DF.

People say that DF is random and we should accept whatever random person we get unless they are rude (to a degree this is subjective and can vary from perspective) trolling (also subjective) or does something against the ToS that is a clear, but also has issues since are guidelines that are not enforced truly guidelines. This is where my confusions lays what makes your perceptive as to what is rude or trolling better then another? The only true objective tool we have to police is the vote kick feature, problem with the vote kick feature is the rules leave a lot up to interpretation.

[Alestrae]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace. If someone says please pull faster, i will try. And oddly enough it was someone asking this that encouraged me to improve from stupidly slow to really slow. I also always check an increased pace is ok with the rest of the party.

Sorry, my point is, the tank sets the pace yes. But if the rest of the party feel a change of pace is needed, and explicitly says so, then the tank should at least try to adjust to that.

[Granyala]

You're missing the point.
If I get bad player after bad player, I don't care if I time out the dungeon.
If you wanna finish the dungeon with someone such as myself, know your class.

Actually, you are the one that misses the point.
You start a dungeon, you have to play 15 minutes until you can kick the ice mage. By that time, even with an ice mage you should be past boss 2.
Now you kick him and have to wait 5 minutes for a replacement DPS.

Bottom line: you just wasted more time that you would have just going to boss 3 with the ice mage and be done with the dungeon.

This isn't WoW where you get quasi insta replacements. I had a lot of aborted runs because no replacement showed, so I don't see the point in kicking an underperforming player (even if he frustrates me) if the group still successfully kills stuff.

PS: "such as myself", may I suggest you get off your high horse? You are nothing special and this is merely a VIDEO GAME, an entertainment product. This is not (esp not in dungeons) "serious competitive business".

[Awha]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace. If someone says please pull faster, i will try. And oddly enough it was someone asking this that encouraged me to improve from stupidly slow to really slow. I also always check an increased pace is ok with the rest of the party.

Sorry, my point is, the tank sets the pace yes. But if the rest of the party feel a change of pace is needed, and explicitly says so, then the tank should at least try to adjust to that.

I can relate to this, reason I got into raiding back in WoW was because someone called me out for my poor play on my shaman before removing me from the party, sure what they said was far from constructive, but it did get me to look up guides and practice proper rotations, stat break points etc . . . thing is I thought for the longest time I was doing fine but the reality was people just did not care enough to say anything and carried me through content. I get some feel they are being kind and respectful when they pull others across the finish line, but the reality is you are leaving them open to an even harsher fall when someone gets sick of pulling them.

[Rongway]

Actually, you are the one that misses the point.
You start a dungeon, you have to play 15 minutes until you can kick the ice mage. By that time, even with an ice mage you should be past boss 2.
Now you kick him and have to wait 5 minutes for a replacement DPS.

You can kick after 5 minutes have elapsed, and a DD replacement is usually a wait of a few seconds. Even if it takes longer, the ice mage wasn't contributing much damage compared to the AoE the other replacement person could be putting out.


15 minutes is the lock for Vote Abandon.

[Granyala]

I sit on both sides of the fence here. An anecdote from my WoW tanking experience: I tank really slow. Because I am comfortable that there is no risk with that pace.

You can't compare WoWs dungeons of old to the faceroll we have in this game.
In the old dungeons you used crowd control, tank AoE was very limited and stuff like avengers shield (Paladin shield throw that hits 3 random mobs) was not usable in a CC scenario because it hit random mobs.
Also you had to wait for patrols because adding pats could very easily wipe the group.

Yeah in such a world a tank has to pull carefully and even *gasp* WAIT for patrols to pass/observe their routes. Man those were the days.

Nothing of that applies to FF-XIV though. The mobs in ex dungeons barely do any damage, they have no special abilities that require any form of control it is all just mindless "drag them onto a heap and AoE them down". I can understand people not having the patience to wait for single group 3 mobs at a time pulls in braindead content like that.

You can kick after 5 minutes have elapsed, and a DD replacement is usually a wait of a few seconds. Even if it takes longer, the ice mage wasn't contributing much damage compared to the AoE the other person could be putting out.

Is it really 5? I had the number 15 in my head. Probably from WoW.
Man, shows how rarely I kick people.