Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Aurelius2625]

The point being missed is that UTILITY comes in many different flavors. PLD's can be defensive in nature, WAR's can be offensive in nature, with the other tanks having something like perhaps GBK can reduce recasts, or shorten cooldowns or something like that. It doesn't all have to be "All tanks have shields...there, you happy? Utility! HAPPY NOW?!?!" where everything is "all the same". Could be interesting. Nothing crazy, but interesting. Maybe give each tank two utilities or so.

Tank swaps should be organic and feel good happening, like there's a rhythm in the fight, and each tank is strategically playing off of the other one, both working as two tanks, one unit to achieve a common goal, like a buddy system.

Each tank should feel GOOD to play in off tank and main tank role. All tanks should have something to do, not like the OT just sitting in the corner as the "blue dps".

Make each encounter have adds or two bosses, or have each tank take a debuff, or deal with 2nd enmity mechanics (you wanna force the enmity thing? "Tanks and enmity are boring!" make more 2nd enmity stuff to manage aggro).

It feels GREAT in 012s, tanks having to manage aggro, swap often, take turns eating the TBuster, it feels great! We need more of that interactivity.

Alex Savage was before my time, but it seems like there was some tank shennanigans going on as well, maybe some of that?

Point is, there are TWO tanks in EVERY encounter. So you will run into situations with TWO MAIN TANKS in DF stuff... what are they to do then? You see where this is going? What if two main tanks or two off tanks are in an instance and poorly balanced? What if they don't have the tools to get the job done because we know the dev team overlooks SEVERELY punishing flaws, like 2.x WAR, 3.x PLD, 4.x DRK?

Every tank should feel good to play in the MAIN TANK and OFF TANK role, no role should be partitioned off. PLD never gets to pull, and therefore hardly ever gets to MT, this is a HUGE problem. All tanks should be able to pull, MT, and OT, and it should FEEL GOOD DOING SO. There should be something to DO with both roles, and it should feel good to Off Tank and Main tank, you should feel like you are DOING something, and CONTRIBUTING.

[shao32]

Offensive utility can't compete against defensive utility, If WAR have offensive utility and GNB have the ability to reduce GCD you will lock the meta for the rest of the expansion, DPS over everything.

Every tank feels good to play in MT and OT already, the main difference is pulling right now, and if you don't remember it in 4.0 every tank pull equally everything, but 4.2 come and we return to the WAR Pull meta thanks to SE to listen the ones that want unchained being free.

Duty finder will put DRK-DRK, WAR and WAR, PLD-PLD and GNB-GNB so what? you can still clear everything with that, currently a MT-OT set up is not a problem with the best example being WAR-PLD, ignoring that PLD pull is worse bcs the poor balance choices made this expansion there will be no difference on what spot you stay and the fun depend more of the fight mechanics rather that wohooo I'm using intervention on my partner.

[Reynhart]

Offensive utility can't compete against defensive utility, If WAR have something offensive and GNB have the ability to reduce GCD you will lock the meta for the rest of the expansion, DPS over everything.

Here comes the misconception. Raid DPS over everything, not personal DPS. And you could bring some utility that increase raid DPS by not being offensive yourself. The main way to do it would be to add enough personal/raid mitigation so that your healers have more time to DPS, or that your DPS could stay in some AoE, thus having higher uptime or not interrupting as much spells as they would without your utility.

Point is, there are TWO tanks in EVERY encounter. So you will run into situations with TWO MAIN TANKS in DF stuff... what are they to do then?

Clear in a non-optimal way, exactly like now when you end with two DRKs in a random group.

like 2.x WAR, 3.x PLD, 4.x DRK?

I certainly wouldn't put 4.x DRK in the same spot as 3.x PLD, and definitely not like 2.0 WAR

[shao32]

snip

hey they other quotes are not mine ^^

but well the only way to counter high raid dps utility is by having low personal dps, but tell that to a WAR, and we still see how are the healer changes but they already spend most o the time in DPS mode, i doubt they need more.

[Reynhart]

hey they other quotes are not mine ^^

Bad copy/paste ! stay ! still

but well the only way to counter high raid dps utility is by having low personal dps, but tell that to a WAR, and we still see how are the healer changes but they already spend most o the time in DPS mode, i doubt they need more.

Well, I think they shouldn't be able to spend that much time DPSing with a tank in DPS stance. They're "too easy" to keep alive, right now.

[Kaedan]

If there are two MTs, you can still do the encounter no problem. We have plenty of situations now where we have two WARs or a WAR and DRK or two DRKS (or even two PLDs). That won't change with the four tanks split into MT and OT -leaning roles. Being classified as a MT doesn't mean you can't OT, and visa versa.

[whiskeybravo]

Every tank feels good to play in MT and OT already, the main difference is pulling right now, and if you don't remember it in 4.0 every tank pull equally everything, but 4.2 come and we return to the WAR Pull meta thanks to SE to listen the ones that want unchained being free.

That's a pretty shifty statement. The WAR community wanted Unchained and Inner Release to not share a timer. Nobody said it had to be free from cost. The original gauge cost to activate IR wasn't an issue, either, it worked fine within the burst duration time frame.

BTW, I've been tanking more on PLD recently. No problems whatsoever pulling in Sword.

[shao32]

That's a pretty shifty statement. The WAR community wanted Unchained and Inner Release to not share a timer. Nobody said it had to be free from cost. The original gauge cost to activate IR wasn't an issue, either, it worked fine within the burst duration time frame.

BTW, I've been tanking more on PLD recently. No problems whatsoever pulling in Sword.

separate unchained from inner release is asking to remove the dps lose that represents bcs the main complaing was the dps waste for using unchained instead of save it the timer on a inner release, that make WAR get the best agro pull since make it have and still have the costless pull of the game thanks to that, DRK keep his DA+power slash buffed, and PLD keep his low rage of halone potency, DRK get buffed finally but pretty late at 4.4 so that leaves PLD being the worse not by desing hearing "all surrounded by familiar faces..."

i dont have problems pulling with PLD either, but after WAR and DRK buffs on that field well it make it feel worse that it really is.

[whiskeybravo]

Unchained is a nice threat boost, but Tomahawk>Equilibrium>Deliverance works without it. By your logic it'd be acceptable to have Fight or Flight and Requiescat share a timer. Hell, it's not a far fetch from Blood Price/Blood Weapon being locked to their respective stances which most of the community wants changed as well.

But hey, let's keep the boogeyman alive.

[Lyth]

...

You seem to be getting into the habit of labelling posts that you disagree with as dishonest. I'm all for having a good debate, but let's keep these attacks out of it.

Players asked for several different things with regards to Unchained, Inner Release, Shake it off, and WAR's stance costs. Whose fault was it? Was it the prominent streamers who campaigned for it? The playerbase which echoed and copypasted those demands? Or the devs for actually listening? It's hard to say, but I didn't see any WAR players arguing that the changes were too powerful after the fact.

Regardless of how you want to spin it, they were a bad set of decisions. As far as tank balance goes, anything that erodes WAR's set of systemic advantages built over Heavensward and Stormblood and brings tanks into parity is going to be a good thing. Anything that puts checks and balances such that no one tank is good at everything is going to be a good thing.

Besides, if you're a half decent player, you won't need that sort of crutch to be desirable, anyways.