Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Reynhart]

If they gave all Tanks a "Cover" type skill, they could implement mechanics that focus around Tanks using this skill - Without it then just leading to a "This fight requires PLD" with the extreme being "This fight requires 2x PLD"

So your solution for balance includes giving the iconic PLD ability to every tank ? You really don't see any problem here ?

[whiskeybravo]

So your solution for balance includes giving the iconic PLD ability to every tank ? You really don't see any problem here ?

Now you're just being obtuse. " "Cover" type ability " they didn't actually say give every tank Cover.

PLD has both Cover and Intervention for reducing damage on a party member. DRK has TBN which is pretty weak compared to either. WAR doesn't have anything at all. While a particular mechanic may be doable with any comp, we know for a fact that PLD's combination of Cover and Intervention allow those same mechanics to be completed with much less stress, thus making it a favorite pick for practically any static comp.

What is the problem you are alluding to? That the world would spontaneously combust knowing all tanks had a comparable support ability?

[Alestrae]

Haven't SE already done that though? In other games. You could theoretically equip the cover materia on aeris in 7 (you'd be an idiot, but you could.. *technically squaresoft back then*) FF10's job grid was built on the idea that if you really wanted <insert ability here> on a specific character you could get it. Sorry I'm just being facetious here. peace.

The other issue (however may have been dead horsed by now) with the MT/OT divide is that it theoretically gives designers leeway to create, for example, a dps that has 1 God Tier tanking ability. This ability doesn't function all the time but is pressed to soak that tank buster, or unstackable debuff, and then just goes right back to dpsing when the MT takes threat/aggro/enmity back again. However that single god tier ability is the only nod to tanking in it's kit, but you know, it's an "off-tank". If they did this to a healer which would make more sense because "raid utility" seems not only entirely acceptable but desired on an "off tank" people would just switch to whatever true tank exists and whatever true roles have the god tier tanking cooldown, potentially only leaving one "tank" in the game.

EDIT: The other tanks would still exist but would no longer be optimal in any setting (well I guess 4 mans). I don't know how many of you have been in the situation where you love tanking but are not allowed to by other players, but I have certainly been there.

I much prefer the term co-tank as mentioned by someone else in this thread because it at least acknowledges a level of tanking functionality.

[Izsha]

Cover TYPE ability isnt a pld iconic ability. Cover is an iconic old ability.

People need to separate what an ability can do (function) from what the ability is (name, animation, job identity, aesthetic, etc)

What does cover DO (function)? It is an action that protects a single target (not self) from damage. Tbn does that and thats a very drk action. War could have some type of inspiring warcry that makes a single target take x% less damage (as an example). All 3 tanks would then have a way to protect a single target from damage. NOW se can create fight with strong single target damage on non tank targets that require tanks to assist in mitigating. New design space. Because if you add that mechanic without drk ot war having those actions you are forced to bring a pld yo cover, or just not have the target be so strongly threatened that you can get by without the tabk assist anyway rendering cover useless.

Giving tanks similar functionality isnt stealing another jobs iconic ability any more than shelltron/tbn 'stole' from the OG cooldown IB. They are each tailored to the job stylistically but serve the same FUNCTION. if other tanks got something woth the same FUNCTION as cover, that isnt stealing. It's a tank protecting a single target ally which all tanks can lay claim to. Tanks protect the party.

If you want to talk about stealing functions then you can hand over all those shelltrons and tbn cuz war was on demand mitigation job before any of that. You can share functions between jobs in job specific and job themed ways.

[Kabooa]

If they literally patch it out, it's an exploit.)

Yes. I don't disagree there, but claiming I'm "seeking exploits" is the most unfair assumption. The culture up until that point was taking an encounter and solving it. The method to solve it varied from group to group.

I wasn't seeking an exploit when I did it. Our tank died. There was no way to get our other tank to the boss. The boss was going to -kill everyone-.

I tried a thing.

It worked.

When it got patched out, you know what happened? Nothing. We continued to clear the boss because it was a niche situation, done on a whim, that worked out for us. We continued on without one contingency plan. We had others.

Now, for the rest of this.

Dark knight's invuln works for every single one that Paladin does. They even get a second use when Paladins likely won't. Just needs a little more effort from your healers. How do you figure Dark Knights getting left out here? Sounds like you could take Paladin or Dark Knight here, despite their cooldowns not having 1:1 parity.

By your own words, you have stated that SE wants jobs to have around 24 skills. By having every job have the same core suite of skills, you vastly limit the amount of new tools that can come out that relate to tanking, because they must maintain parity. Sure, there might be new tools, but you're likely losing old ones too. Unless we start adding them to the Role menu. That went over really well for the Dark Knight.

If one tank can't silence, the Melee or Ranged can do it. If they can't stun, the melee can do it. If they can't X - Someone else can do it. It would take active work to create a party composition that cannot deal with a mechanic spread like this, because as stated earlier in this thread, Tank exclusive responsibilities in this game are -minimal-.

[Reynhart]

Now you're just being obtuse. " "Cover" type ability " they didn't actually say give every tank Cover.

No, you just put blinders on. It's not because it's not called Cover that suddently "taking hits for someone else" is not the iconic PLD ability. And in case you wonder, Shake It Off, TBN, Divine Veil or the late Stoneskin are not the same thing as Cover strategically speaking.

What IS cover. It is an action that protects a single target (not self) from damage.

No, it's not. Cover is an action that redirects hits. Meaning it also redirects additionnal effects linked to those hits, which no other ability does.

While a particular mechanic may be doable with any comp, we know for a fact that PLD's combination of Cover and Intervention allow those same mechanics to be completed with much less stress, thus making it a favorite pick for practically any static comp.

Yeah, almost like PLD was designed to bring something more valuable as an OT than a MT...

[Kabooa]

Cover TYPE ability isnt a pld iconic ability. Cover is an iconic old ability.

People need to separate what an ability can do from what the ability is.

What IS cover. It is an action that protects a single target (not self) from damage.

No, it makes the paladin the target of the attack.

-Intervention- is the comparable ability for TBN.

Also, in terms of flavor.

Cover, also called Guard, is a recurring ability in the Final Fantasy series. It allows a character to take physical damage in the place of an ally. It is usually associated with the Paladin or Knight classes.

[whiskeybravo]

No, you just put blinders on. It's not because it's not called Cover that suddently "taking hits for someone else" is not the iconic PLD ability... No, it's not. Cover is an action that redirects hits. Meaning it also redirects additionnal effects linked to those hits, which no other ability does.

OH, so what you're saying is - that it's possible for SE to make similar support abilities to assist in dealing with damage to a particular party member without having to copy/paste existing ones?

Yeah, almost like PLD was designed to bring something more valuable as an OT than a MT...

I don't recall Cover being limited to whether or not you are actively tanking an enemy.

[Kabooa]

OH, so what you're saying is - that it's possible for SE to make similar support abilities to assist in dealing with damage to a particular party member without having to copy/paste existing ones?

Would you care to provide an example of an ability that would redirect hits to the Dark Knight that would maintain parity with Cover and also be its own distinct version?

Ooh, you know what, I'll go first.

Shunt
Ability
120s Cooldown
Effect: Grant ally "Cover me!" for 10 seconds. While you are within 10y of the ally with "Cover Me!", all attacks targeting you instead target them.

[Izsha]

Point. Missed.

Cover (the iconic part) is literally placing yourself between the monster and the party member (redirecting). I dont ness a history lesson on cover.

But what is its FUNCTION. the reason you use cover is to protect a single ally from damage. That's why you use it in every FF ever. You know what else protects an alliance from damage? Tbn. See that? Different ability. Same function.

IB is a readily available short duration mitigation tool. But it does it in a War way by unleashing the beast, bypassing tank penalty, healing the user, etc all war traits. Shelltron serves the same function by doing a very pld thing. Using their darn shield and generating mo and swipe procs. Tbn, etc. 3 job specific unique actions that serve the same function.

Cover is an iconic pld action who's purpose is to protect an ally. War, drk and GB can EASILY have unique ways to also protect a single target that is not literally jumping in front of them like cover.

Sheesh people. This isnt rocket science.