Why Does A Fierce Race Of Female Warriors...

[Kacho_Nacho]

Ok. Consider this.

Lv1 starting player, with me? *gasp* Playing the game gives you armor. Wow.

Also, Shad is a long ways off from ARR. If you're just starting, chances are you're on free trial, and are not on the Viera train unless you spend a sizable sum to play them right off the bat. I believe ARR is still purchasable as is, but to that end, you don't get to play as Au Ra or Viera or Hrothgar. And even still, why does a fierce race of female adventurer's have to wear mini skirts and show off cleavage? (Hyur, Miqo'te, Roegadames)

There's no need to *gasp*. ((smiles at you))

Of course, you get armor later. I'm not stupid nor is anyone else in this thread.

The reason I'm not concerned with hyur, miqo'te, roes... is because showing skin is not a yes or no issue. It's a spectrum and I thought the viera starter gear went too far on that spectrum.

In addition, women don't have to wear anything they don't want to. The issue of female characters having to wear chainmail bikinis in most fantasy games is a topic larger than this thread.

Personally, I believe that reflects a certain sexism in game developers much like why males couldn't wear the bunny suit because the male developers were bothered by it. All and all, I would like there to be choice.

Players should have the option to wear sexy gear, modest gear, etc... People don't have the option to not have to wear starter gear. If it were up to me, I'd offer a choice of gear to start the game with so everyone's happy.

Hey Kacho_Nacho, wanna say some things real quick. I might not agree with you, but I appreciate that you've had a sense of humor through this thread. Some of your responses here legit made me smile and I wanted to let you know!

Also, I work with alts a lot and have gotten pretty good at leveling fast. Have had to put up with the early potato sack gear for a while because you need to jump through a couple hoops top access dyes/glamours if you're not based in Ul'dah already. I'm not fond of it, but grand scheme not the biggest deal.

Level one to level five is way faster, and if you absolutely detest the Viera starting gear you don't need to keep it long at all. Quests even hand out gear upon completion for free sometimes. Why not just roll your eyes and blast through a couple of the easy levels to get something else? If you have been playing for a while you can even start off with alternate level one gear as a veteran so you literally might not need to level at all to get something else.

You also have a choice in how you view the starter gear, even if you're not into it. The Laura Mulvey objectification argument (what usually gets applied when criticizing fanservice) has been disproven a bunch of times across the decades. Sexy people are not viewed the same way a piece of meat or object is, and Mulvey's principles have roots in homophobia and sexism. Whole thing flies in the face of women's liberation (rendering women artificially passive/disempowered) along with the idea of same-sex attraction. None of this means every person who buys into the ideas are sexist and homophobic overall, there's some sneaky rhetoric there and I think that gets to a lot of people with good intentions.

I understand that without those ideas at work it's also okay to just not be partial to fanservice. But it isn't actually dangerous by itself, and finding one outfit personally distasteful doesn't have to mean Viera as a whole have been ruined over it.

Mentioning all of this because I get you feel frustrated and disappointed with the starter gear even if other people aren't, and that's not fun. I figure if there's a way to help you let this roll off your back a bit to find a way to enjoy yourself anyway I'd like to help. Might not share the same view but sending good vibes your way and I hope this can make things easier!

Thank you. I knew going into this that this would be a hot button topic. What I have appreciated that most of the posts have been polite and a majority of posts have been quite informative to me.

Peace, Love, and Dolphins!

[Joven]

The reason I'm not concerned with hyur, miqo'te, roes... is because showing skin is not a yes or no issue. It's a spectrum and I thought the viera starter gear went too far on that spectrum.

In addition, women don't have to wear anything they don't want to. The issue of female characters having to wear chainmail bikinis in most fantasy games is a topic larger than this thread.

Personally, I believe that reflects a certain sexism in game developers much like why males couldn't wear the bunny suit because the male developers were bothered by it. All and all, I would like there to be choice.

Players should have the option to wear sexy gear, modest gear, etc... People don't have the option to not have to wear starter gear. If it were up to me, I'd offer a choice of gear to start the game with so everyone's happy.

Here's the problem with your "women don't have to wear anything they don't want to" and about the "sexism" argument in general: Viera aren't real women. If the developers are treating real women with disdain and forcing them to wear skimpy clothing then yes, they'd be sexists, but these are fictional creations, they have no agency except what the developers give them. To say that their portrayal means the developers are sexist is assuming a lot about individuals you know next to nothing about and throwing around words like that about them can do serious harm to those individual's reputations. People on these threads and social media in general need to think beyond their personal views of a situation before they start trying to label certain people a certain way otherwise someone is going to end up losing their job, or worse.

I've been avoiding directly addressing you for the entirety of this thread because even though I don't agree with your stance, I felt like you meant no harm in your statement. But now you're calling people sexist because of your own displeasure and that is harmful.

[Jaywalker]

Here's the problem with your "women don't have to wear anything they don't want to" and about the "sexism argument in general: Viera aren't real women. If the developers are treating real women with disdain and forcing them to wear skimpy clothing then yes, they'd be sexists, but these are fictional creations, they have no agency except what the developers give them. To say that their portrayal means the developers are sexist is assuming a lot about individuals you no next to nothing about and throwing around words like that about them can do serious harm to those individual's reputations. People on these threads and social media in general need to think beyond their personal views of a situation before they start trying to label certain people a certain way otherwise someone is going to end up losing their job, or worse.

I've been avoiding directly addressing you for the entirety of this thread because even though I don't agree with your stance, I felt like you meant no harm in your statement. But now you're calling people sexist because of your own displeasure and that is harmful.

XD Sorry I keep jumping in, you made some interesting points and wanted to offer another perspective on it! Figure Kacho has a separate POV from mine here and like got discussed before whole thing's pretty hot button.

I agree there's a huge difference between how fictional characters are treated versus how real people are treated, but I also think storytellers can craft agency for their characters in a way that should be clear and possible to articulate. Part of the issue here and part of why I think Kacho's suggestion of choice (while not necessarily doable on a practical level because time/money/labor constraints) is a much fairer suggestion than censorship is because players for FFXIV will often personally interpret personalities for their WoL's. Not everyone does, but I know I've heard a bunch of players express feeling kinda :< because one or another canon element was in contradiction with how they were developing things. I personally think it's okay to either disregard pieces of canon that don't gel according to what makes sense, or to be creative and come up with alternate scenarios for how a character gets from point A to point B. It's not the perfect solution, but can still turn out some really impressive results.

When it comes to using words like sexism with respect to fictional characters, honestly there sometimes is actual cause. However, partly because the terms get taken SUPER seriously a lot of the time and partly because it's possible the creator just goofed, is learning, or has some other legitimate reason for inclusion that you weren't aware of... I don't think just saying "sexist" is the most effective way to review the issue. Kind of similar to how "Mary Sue/Marty Stu" isn't the best way to articulate "your character doesn't fit into the world or cast organically and is warping everyone/everything around 'em in ways that aren't justified'. Different people might take the term differently.

Some examples of how the fanservice situation can vary:

- There's a comic I read a few years back where the artist was a pretty terrible fit for the story being told. This artist is very cheesecake, very fanservice. The story had a scene involving a conversation between two rape victims, one a man and one a woman, about what happened to them and how to deal with it. It was a super serious moment. This artist decided that was the point to give the female character a T&A shot while pouting sexily, not even looking at the guy as they're discussing. I don't think saying the artist was being sexist would really encompass how much was going wrong there, but saying it's extremely bad timing, didn't make sense, and was seriously inappropriate given what was going on would cover that way more effectively. Another story had a female character who was actively apathetic to sexuality and seemed bored/miserable the entire time doing T&A bits while other characters were shown sneaking photos from behind bushes. Wasn't a parody. Read creepy, inappropriate, and exploitative. If the character had been having fun and posing for another character who was openly taking a picture, having a laugh, that's a very different story. She's in on the joke there. You miss the nuance and how to fix the situation if you just say sexism imo.

- Bayonetta exists as a big fanservice character. A lot of her humor involves doing absolutely ridiculous things that result in T&A at different points. A big part of the joke is that it's absurd. She also is shown to have fun with it. One scene something shocking happened, the camera pans between reaction shots of various characters. Little girl? Shocked. Guy #1? Shocked. Guy #2? Shocked. Bayonetta? Boob shot. Because the moment was light hearted and poking fun at how silly/ridiculous the fanservice was while sharing it, no need to worry I figure. Not coming at anyone's expense. Sometimes we can just laugh at boobs and butts.

There's also more funny male fanservice humor starting to crop up too these days (look at Jojo haha), and imo that's worth celebrating!

Overall though I think this is mostly a thing where the clearer we can be and more nuance we allow, the more productive convos will go. Can totally give critique, but I think there's a difference in gravity between critiquing a choice and critiquing a person. And while people are free to make works with creepy subtext (fiction's not mind control after all), people can still engage with that subtext critically.

ALSO YOU CAN DO IT ON THE GAME JOVEN! Glad feedback before was helpful!

[Joven]

XD Sorry I keep jumping in, you made some interesting points and wanted to offer another perspective on it! Figure Kacho has a separate POV from mine here and like got discussed before whole thing's pretty hot button.

I agree there's a huge difference between how fictional characters are treated versus how real people are treated, but I also think storytellers can craft agency for their characters in a way that should be clear and possible to articulate. Part of the issue here and part of why I think Kacho's suggestion of choice (while not necessarily doable on a practical level because time/money/labor constraints) is a much fairer suggestion than censorship is because players for FFXIV will often personally interpret personalities for their WoL's. Not everyone does, but I know I've heard a bunch of players express feeling kinda :< because one or another canon element was in contradiction with how they were developing things. I personally think it's okay to either disregard pieces of canon that don't gel according to what makes sense, or to be creative and come up with alternate scenarios for how a character gets from point A to point B. It's not the perfect solution, but can still turn out some really impressive results.

When it comes to using words like sexism with respect to fictional characters, honestly there sometimes is actual cause. However, partly because the terms get taken SUPER seriously a lot of the time and partly because it's possible the creator just goofed, is learning, or has some other legitimate reason for inclusion that you weren't aware of... I don't think just saying "sexist" is the most effective way to review the issue. Kind of similar to how "Mary Sue/Marty Stu" isn't the best way to articulate "your character doesn't fit into the world or cast organically and is warping everyone/everything around 'em in ways that aren't justified'. Different people might take the term differently.

- Bayonetta exists as a big fanservice character. A lot of her humor involves doing absolutely ridiculous things that result in T&A at different points. A big part of the joke is that it's absurd. She also is shown to have fun with it. One scene something shocking happened, the camera pans between reaction shots of various characters. Little girl? Shocked. Guy #1? Shocked. Guy #2? Shocked. Bayonetta? Boob shot. Because the moment was light hearted and poking fun at how silly/ridiculous the fanservice was while sharing it, no need to worry I figure. Not coming at anyone's expense. Sometimes we can just laugh at boobs and butts.

There's also more funny male fanservice humor starting to crop up too these days (look at Jojo haha), and imo that's worth celebrating!

Overall though I think this is mostly a thing where the clearer we can be and more nuance we allow, the more productive convos will go. Can totally give critique, but I think there's a difference in gravity between critiquing a choice and critiquing a person. And while people are free to make works with creepy subtext (fiction's not mind control after all), people can still engage with that subtext critically.

ALSO YOU CAN DO IT ON THE GAME JOVEN! Glad feedback before was helpful!

No need to apologize for jumping in when you have something to say, this is an open discussion after all.

I get where you're coming from about the agency of the characters, but the neither the Viera nor any female character in this game is shown to lack agency. You might say Nanamo, but her's is a situation of story context. She lacks power because of Ul'dah's economics not because anyone is holding her down. The Viera are shown to be a strong hunter/warrior race and not victims of oppression and discrimination. Maybe they embrace their sexuality like Bayonetta, or maybe they don't even consider the concept of sexuality the same as we do. The only one's who do know are the devs and part of me believes they don't think that far into things.

I also take issue with how "fanservice" has been boiled down to simply the inclusion of T&A when it is so much more than that.

Other than that, thanks for the motivation and support!

[Jaywalker]

No need to apologize for jumping in when you have something to say, this is an open discussion after all.

I get where you're coming from about the agency of the characters, but the neither the Viera nor any female character in this game is shown to lack agency. You might say Nanamo, but her's is a situation of story context. She lacks power because of Ul'dah's economics not because anyone is holding her down. The Viera are shown to be a strong hunter/warrior race and not victims of oppression and discrimination. Maybe they embrace their sexuality like Bayonetta, or maybe they don't even consider the concept of sexuality the same as we do. The only one's who do know are the devs and part of me believes they don't think that far into things.

I also take issue with how "fanservice" has been boiled down to simply the inclusion of T&A when it is so much more than that.

Other than that, thanks for the motivation and support!

Thanks! And no prob on motivation/support, go kick butt!

I actually figure Nanamo's fine tbh lol. Her situation's limiting, but I think it matters that how she deals with her situation is a choice and understood as such. If she despaired and decided to live day-by-day in excess while ignoring her people, that would make her tragic. Maybe even a tragic villain, depending. She could also have been tragic if she was so ignorant and helpless she remained a passive and childlike puppet incapable of surviving independently, particularly if it was shown in-story that she could not manage outside a gilded cage. As is, she fights her situation and develops herself into a capable ruler in her own right. None of the three possibilities demonstrate lack of agency/choice on a technical, storytelling level. It's just that some would be shown as personally weak and some are personally strong. People are like that. Figure everyone regardless of gender has the capacity to be personally strong or weak, but that doesn't make any ineffective as characters.

One way to think of it is you could have a three different characters trapped in featureless rooms by themselves and unable to escape, but what they choose to do with themselves even while being stuck like that is still a choice that says something about them. When I talk about agency, I just mean that there's a reason that can be understood in human terms. Genre conventions, humor, and parody are fine reasons too but there are still ways those reasons can work or fall flat.

When it comes to the Viera, I file them mainly under genre conventions because FFXIV (and FF games as a whole) tend to run on rule of aesthetic/"it just looks good". Doesn't necessarily make sense and is generally applied pretty evenly across the board. If it was a more realistic game where you got more detailed characterization from what characters choose to put on their bodies in different places/situations, that might be subject to some criticism. Under the circumstances doesn't seem like a problem to me. The genre conventions here are consistent in how they suspend disbelief so don't necessarily need to bring up stuff about how warriors in hot climates wear less, even if that is true. FFXIV warriors wear bathingsuits in Coerthas.

Lol I am with you on there being more to fanservice than T&A, the cases I was referring to just happened to involve that kind of fanservice. Also, I think it's worth noting there's a difference between say, artistic nudes (even with conventionally sexy bodies) and fanservice imo. Posture, presentation, atmosphere, context, all that ties in. T&A is just the best shorthand I've got for "this character is pulling contortionist moves to show both off at the same time" lol.

[Joven]

Thanks! And no prob on motivation/support, go kick butt!

I actually figure Nanamo's fine tbh lol. Her situation's limiting, but I think it matters that how she deals with her situation is a choice and understood as such. If she despaired and decided to live day-by-day in excess while ignoring her people, that would make her tragic. Maybe even a tragic villain, depending. She could also have been tragic if she was so ignorant and helpless she remained a passive and childlike puppet incapable of surviving independently, particularly if it was shown in-story that she could not manage outside a gilded cage. As is, she fights her situation and develops herself into a capable ruler in her own right. None of the three possibilities demonstrate lack of agency/choice on a technical, storytelling level. It's just that some would be shown as personally weak and some are personally strong. People are like that. Figure everyone regardless of gender has the capacity to be personally strong or weak, but that doesn't make any ineffective as characters.

One way to think of it is you could have a three different characters trapped in featureless rooms by themselves and unable to escape, but what they choose to do with themselves even while being stuck like that is still a choice that says something about them. When I talk about agency, I just mean that there's a reason that can be understood in human terms. Genre conventions, humor, and parody are fine reasons too but there are still ways those reasons can work or fall flat.

If Nanamo decided to live in spendor due to her circumstances while her people suffered I'd call her a b***h not tragic. Fortunately she is exerting what messure of control she has through Raubahn to change things. And it helps that she's just so darned adorable.

Yotsuyu comes to mind as someone who profited off of their situation. She tries to play the "woe is me" angle to garner sympathy, even at the end. I felt bad for what she went through, but instead of using that to become a stronger person she gave into hatred and spite. So at the end when she was complaining about her situation all I could think of was "you's a ho".

When it comes to the Viera, I file them mainly under genre conventions because FFXIV (and FF games as a whole) tend to run on rule of aesthetic/"it just looks good". Doesn't necessarily make sense and is generally applied pretty evenly across the board. If it was a more realistic game where you got more detailed characterization from what characters choose to put on their bodies in different places/situations, that might be subject to some criticism. Under the circumstances doesn't seem like a problem to me. The genre conventions here are consistent in how they suspend disbelief so don't necessarily need to bring up stuff about how warriors in hot climates wear less, even if that is true. FFXIV warriors wear bathingsuits in Coerthas.

I agree, there seems to be a lack of understanding in some peoples arguments I've seen where they can't distinguish between "this is a video game so I should be able to do what I want" and "what makes sense within the context of the world I'm in". Some argue that just because the devs allow certain, non world building items (like Cloud's bike or the upcoming Regalia) then everything is fair game for whatever. I guess that's just the nature of the beast.

Lol I am with you on there being more to fanservice than T&A, the cases I was referring to just happened to involve that kind of fanservice. Also, I think it's worth noting there's a difference between say, artistic nudes (even with conventionally sexy bodies) and fanservice imo. Posture, presentation, atmosphere, context, all that ties in. T&A is just the best shorthand I've got for "this character is pulling contortionist moves to show both off at the same time" lol.

LOL, I'm with you on that, unecessarily sexy posing is really hamfisting that kind of fanservice. Though to be honest it can serve to break a tense situation if you feel your story is getting too serious. Kill la Kill is a good example of that.

[Jaywalker]

If Nanamo decided to live in spendor due to her circumstances while her people suffered I'd call her a b***h not tragic.

I think it depends a bit on circumstances. Could full well turn tragic bitch haha, but I think the tragic part comes from how much she cares and whether her behavior is because she legit is convinced she's incapable of doing anything to help and how she hit that point. If she doesn't care and is just unapologetically going "let them eat cake" that's full-villain to me. I was thinking cares-but-learned-helplessness. Agreed as she actually is Nanamo is adorable and heroic tho!

Yotsuyu I think is tragic too, def tragic villain. Or tragic bitch, both work.

Haven't seen Kill la Kill but I get you! And agreed on the videogame fun versus worldbuilding context.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Here's the problem with your "women don't have to wear anything they don't want to" and about the "sexism" argument in general: Viera aren't real women. If the developers are treating real women with disdain and forcing them to wear skimpy clothing then yes, they'd be sexists, but these are fictional creations, they have no agency except what the developers give them. To say that their portrayal means the developers are sexist is assuming a lot about individuals you no next to nothing about and throwing around words like that about them can do serious harm to those individual's reputations. People on these threads and social media in general need to think beyond their personal views of a situation before they start trying to label certain people a certain way otherwise someone is going to end up losing their job, or worse.

I've been avoiding directly addressing you for the entirety of this thread because even though I don't agree with your stance, I felt like you meant no harm in your statement. But now you're calling people sexist because of your own displeasure and that is harmful.

Hi Jovan. I think you misunderstood what I was saying with my comment. I meant, female players should be allowed to dress their character however they want.

I'm a sensitive new age guy, you know.

Same forum where people get hyper defensive and demand bunny suits for dudes produces people offended by attractive women. Why do they listen to this place?

Because different people are different?

You think I'm offended by beautiful women? Hahahahahaha! I think you aimed for a polar bear and hit a penguin there.

Didn't read this whole thread so I'm mainly speaking directly to the OP and I guess anyone else who's suddenly taking umbrage with Viera's base gear.

If you don't like it, then don't wear it.

You should have read the thread. Your answers have already been brought but thanks for the link! I love stuff like this.

I wasn't planning on wearing the outfit. People aren't ready for the tidal wave of lalafell lust which would ensue.

[Sigma-Astra]

Hi Jovan. I think you misunderstood what I was saying with my comment. I meant, female players should be allowed to dress their character however they want.

I'm a sensitive new age guy, you know.

I hope that you don't take any offense with this, but uh.....female players don't need you to be offended or speak for them. I'm pretty sure we can speak for ourselves about this.

[Kacho_Nacho]

I hope that you don't take any offense with this, but uh.....female players don't need you to be offended or speak for them. I'm pretty sure we can speak for ourselves about this.

No offense taken.

It is such a narrow line today, isn't it? If you speak out, you are reminded that you shouldn't speak for others; but, if you don't speak out, you are part of the problem.

You can dress your character however you want. No-one is denying you that option just because of skimpy starter gear.

I know that.

And they can though? I really don't see what you're trying to say. FFXIV gives you a ton's of options.

If you're trying to say Female players wouldn't like playing Viera because their starter outfit is revealing, I won't say all but I can say most won't give a crap.
Just like how most Male players won't care if a Male Viera or Hrothgar Starter was Topless and had a Loincloth.

Most females players that I know actually like dressing sexy but a lot of people like to think they don't and want to be in full plated armor with no skin what so ever.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. I was letting S.E. know that I initially thought the starter gear was over the line. I have no clue one way or another if people would be turned off from playing viera because of it.

As far as women liking sexy outfits, just like everything else people have different things they like.

Most female players I play with (read, my FC) play skimpily dressed male miqo's. and the other half play skimpily dressed female miqo's

That's cool. Um, what happens when a fly gets loose in the FC house?

Goodnight everyone. Fibro-fog is hitting and I need to bow out.