Why Does A Fierce Race Of Female Warriors...

[Joven]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't voice your opinions, or saying they're not allowed to critisize, you absolutly should, but when you start refering something released as a "problem" when it isn't just because you personally find it distasteful that's where the issue lies. You start to encroach on the devs creative freedom. What I'm trying to do is point out that certain thought processes are harmful to the outcome of the content released. I've never said "you can't dislike that" only that you can't say it's a problem when it's not just because you dislike it.

My opinion isn't more important than others, but their opinions aren't more important than the dev's wishes for their game. Some of the male Viera threads are a good example of people trying to use their opinions to essentially force the devs to release male Vieras by calling them "regressive", "sexist" and "homophobic" and saying that not having the males present is a problem. You get enough of those and the devs will think that's how the majority feels and even if their end decision was to not implement the male they'll feel like they had to because of the pressure. Your Unnamed Industry has fallen into this trap where they think the loud minority speaks for everyone and now they're paying the consequences. I don't want the same thing to start happening here.

[Jaywalker]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't voice your opinions, or saying they're not allowed to critisize, you absolutly should, but when you start refering something released as a "problem" when it isn't just because you personally find it distasteful that's where the issue lies.

Idk man, I don't think it's right to do the same language policing thing where certain words become off-limits due to fear. I think you're right to say it's misleading to call something a "problem" as if it's objective fact. It's not, it's the OP's opinion and that difference is important. But if they want to use it they've got that right, just like you've got the right to point it out and disagree.

My opinion isn't more important than others, but their opinions aren't more important than the dev's wishes for their game.

I think that's a bit debatable. This is a business and a franchise. It's not one person's passion project existing in the vacuum of their head. A lot of the problems I described in my unnamed industry are because there is zero sense of professional responsibility, craftsmanship, or respect for most customers. People are literally destroying entire brands for selfish reasons. The attitude there is that storytelling (visually, verbally, etc.) is worth as much as the creator's feelings, that the creator's feelings and self-expression are the ultimate good, and no one has a right to criticize. That entitlement is a massive problem, just as fan entitlement and harassment is a massive problem. It's important to recognize that both positions (critic and creator) have some merit, but taken to extremes can cause huge issues.

The dev's wishes for the game are important. If the dev's wishes for the game come at the expense of the customers more than they bring enjoyment, the inevitable consequences of that are more people leaving than entering the playerbase. It's a balancing act, you know?

Some of the male Viera threads are a good example of people trying to use their opinions to essentially force the devs to release male Vieras by calling them "regressive", "sexist" and "homophobic" and saying that not having the males present is a problem. You get enough of those and the devs will think that's how the majority feels and even if their end decision was to not impliment the male they'll feel like they had to because of the pressure.

I agree that behavior is wrong. If this was a Western property, accusations like that could be career-ending. Fortunately, people in this fandom seem to still have a degree of skepticism instead of taking it as a given that accusation = guilt. Further, Japan has some protection by virtue of not depending on Western values/opinions. Since people casually making accusations of bigotry don't have power with respect to FFXIV, the important thing from there is that the devs have the mental and creative fortitude to simply reject those accusations as ridiculous/unfounded and keep trucking. It also seems to be pretty commonly understood that forums ≠ the entire player base, and the international player base differs a great deal from the American or just overall English-speaking player base.

This is that confidence thing I mentioned. Part of the responsibility involved in being a good creator comes from being able to understand there will always be critics, even those who are hateful and want to destroy what you've made. Mature creators need to be able to take a deep breath and decide independently what criticism has merit, what doesn't, and keep going according to what seems appropriate. Not just trying to appease the loudest voices.

No fan has the right to tell SE how to evaluate criticism. They have to use their own good judgment. Assume they see the arguments and counter-arguments, then simply make a good case.

Like I said before, I have no problem with the female Viera's default clothing. It's even kind of reassuring to me because that sort of thing is so demonized elsewhere. I don't necessarily think OP's criticism is fair under the circumstances, so I raised that point. I'd also like male Viera included, but I don't think it's right for people to launch accusations at devs for not getting what they want when they want it. I happen to agree with you that using fear tactics and censorship is a major problem, and it's the LAST thing I want in FFXIV. That said I don't think OP was terrible, out of line, or threatening in expressing their opinion on the subject.

[Acesfool]

Bring on the sexy. The more the better. My only problem with viera so far is their facial features appear too Paris Hiltony for me.

[Makeda]

Bring on the sexy. The more the better. My only problem with viera so far is their facial features appear too Paris Hiltony for me.

The thing that has me the most excited to play a Viera is trying to get that 'rabbit like nose' Fran has. So far I've seen it in most of the concept art so I'm still assuming it will be on the character choices. If it is, My Elezen is extremely likely to find a Moogle has a fantasia potion for her.

My second 'long bet' is to hope the glamour choices look better.

What will Hempen Camise look like? - that alone can make or break a character choice.
What will 'Brand New Boots' and 'Brand New Gloves' look like. Currently this is a trash item unless you have an Aura female, and then it's the 'Hempen Camise' of shoes...
- and so on.

Also desperately hoping they have a more silly 'panic' emote like a Miqote or Aura and not the 'I'm too dignified for that emote' version the Elezen have. Because I begin every dungeon on my cat and lizard characters with a healthy panic emote for the laughs.

but if its a female? ooooo hell no! its hypersexual and everybody goes bat-crap crazy, Like the OP who outright calls viera strippers.

Yeah it says a lot more about the OP than anything else that that phrasing was used... That bit of misogyny angered me...

[Joven]

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I agree that it is a fine line between calling out someone for using terms that have the potential to give the wrong impression about something and trying to deny them the option to disagree about that something. I struggle to express myself in a way that doesn't come off as trying to tell others what they should/n't be doing and sometimes I succeed and others, like this thread, not so much. That's kind of one of the reasons I participate in discussions like this, to try and better my ability to debate and express my thoughts.

snip

Just because this is a business doesn't mean the devs can't have a passion for the world they've created. It's not just one person's passion, it's a whole team's passion and it's shown in the little details of the environments, the character animations and emotes, the music, etc and it's proven that they have a passion and respect for the fans by the content released. Most of which comes from fan requests. I know that this is a business and that money is a motivating factor, but I honestly think that this game is almost wholly a passion project because if it was purely profit driven they would have scrapped the whole concept after the failure of 1.0 for being unprofitable.

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I agree that it is a balancing act of giving fans what they want and holding to your vision, but sometimes you just have to say "we feel like that addition doesn't work for what we're intending". I'll use the Viera/Hrothgar situation as an example again since it's the most recent controversy: I feel that if the devs had an in-world related reason as to why those races only have one gender and they felt that fan requests for the other genders went against that reason and would disrupt future plans then they should be able to reject the request without facing severe backlash. That's where we as fans need to understand that we shouldn't expect to get everything we want even though we pay a subscription. We're paying to participate in the story the developers are telling, not paying to control it.

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Japan and SE aren't going to be shielded from Western values/opinions forever since they participate in a global market and marketing shapes cultures.

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I don't think the OP was any of those things either but their line of "I thought you were better than that SE" is in the same vein of "I think this is a problem and you should change it". It's not threatening or out of line, but it still insinuates they wish to change something due to personal taste.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Why does every female have to be dressed in a Burka to satisfy some people?

Totally a strawman argument, Makeda. If you noticed, I did not complain about the starting outfits of other races. To me, they are fine.

What I'm complaining about is that the gear is barely there. The viera are practically nude. They seem more like the outfits you'd see adult entertainers wear in a strip club.

((The viera's buttcheeks are already a meme. Look it up.))

Why does every female have to be dressed in a Burka to satisfy some people?

Totally a strawman argument, Makeda. If you noticed, I did not complain about the starting outfits of other races. To me, they are fine. I appreciate people like their sexy characters.

What I'm complaining about is the viera are practically nude. They are wearing lingerie and I feel that goes too far.

((The viera's buttcheeks are already a meme. Look it up.))

Is this a joke thread?


"I ordered a hamburger!

-Gets Hamburger

Why is there burger in my humburger!? Come on SE .."

This is how this train of thought sounds.
The viera look exactly like how they have always looked in their starter gear. You can make your character wear w/e you want so REALLY the only thing to look at are emotes and poses as these define the persona of that race and you can't control that ... and they don't have stripper or w/e emotes sooooo yeah, make em look like you're dream warrior.
(10)

Another strawman argument.

But, as I wrote earlier, now that I know that the gear is a throwback to FFXII, I'm not as bothered. I'm just stating it bothered me when I first saw it and it doesn't matter if I'm behind the times. It's the first time I saw the starting gear.

I didn't sign up to FFXIV to get characters dressed like something out of Forsaken World or Tera.

Yeah it says a lot more about the OP than anything else that that phrasing was used... That bit of misogyny angered me...

I'm not misogynistic in the least. Perhaps i should have used the term, Victoria's Secret models.

And I my comment was on the outfit, not the Viera. I felt they should be treated with more respect than they appeared to be by Square Enix. Hence my remark that I thought S.E. was better than that.

If you think that line of thought is misogynistic then there is nothing more than I can say because I believe from the deepest place in my heart you are wrong.

[Senn]

If you noticed, I did not complain about the starting outfits of other races. To me, they are fine.

If all of the other female race's starter gear is fine, what's wrong with having one race with starter gear like this? I personally like their racial gear. It's just like Fran's.

[Avatre]

...look like strippers?

To distract the enemies and be able to slide a dagger between their dibs while practically hugging them.

[xxvaynxx]

Totally a strawman argument, Makeda. If you noticed, I did not complain about the starting outfits of other races. To me, they are fine.

What I'm complaining about is that the gear is barely there. The viera are practically nude. They seem more like the outfits you'd see adult entertainers wear in a strip club.

((The viera's buttcheeks are already a meme. Look it up.))

You take issue with viera starter but not miqo'te?
Miqo'te has a mini skirt where you can clearly see their panties without even trying and tiny tube top where their breast bounce in it like its DoA.

[shao32]

well i will say we should be grateful fran's outfit is not a mogstation item since it will be a popular demand to have if it wasn't a racial gear.