The mentor system sucks, and here's how I would fix it.

[WaterShield]

The same people who want to do it now? The people who want Astrope. Like that's why anyone is doing mentor roulette in the first place. Not sure why you're strawmanning me saying that I'm asking for mentors to be anything, I literally said the system shouldn't be a thing because hardly anyone cares about it. The only people who want it to exist are people who want their crown pixels and a global chat.

Ok it seems the point was missed. I'll condense.

IF the current rewards are already struggling to draw people in for the queue (given the massive wait time on some peoples queue's for say old EX trials) what other rewards would you suggest be added?

[HyoMinPark]

Though, we should at first change people mindset, because I don't know about other mentors, but I'm tired.

I spent whole 120 minutes explaining The Orbonne Monastery at 1st week in Alliance chat because people asked about it (while I was able to leave, wait 30 minutes penalty and then find new duty almost immediately because I'm Tank). We finally cleared it 3 minutes before the end. And I didn't recieve nor commend, nor even "thanks" in the chat, just nothing. Only thing people did is "Vote Abandon" initialiaze (at 1st week) and complain that mentors do nothing, when there was actually only me with crown and I explained everything and was calm, polite and tried to cheer those who was sad about fails. I don't know, what was I supposed to do really. Play for them the whole game? And it's not the first time when it was like this, it's like this every time in any new (and not new) content. I removed my mentor crown and don't really plan to use it again for while. Maybe at some day, but not now.

So it's not only about mentors, it's about players too: as long as there are people who treat mentors as free servants, there will not be mentors who really want to help others get better. Because who in the world will want to help to people who can't even write "Thank you" in chat?

I have these same sentiments. I’m not someone who cares about the rewards—I’ve had Mentor Roulette unlocked almost since the system was put in place back in 3.2 (?), but only started doing it recently because I’m bored and revisiting old content is fun sometimes. A lot of the times, there’s no need to explain any mechanics: I tend to get a lot of Guildhests and baby dungeons or leveling dungeons in my roulettes, and people rarely ask questions. However, when the odd EX primal pops up, I can spend the entire 60 minutes explaining how to do the fight for people to just... not listen. And that is the most frustrating part. I’m reminded of a Shiva EX I had where me (WHM) and one of the tanks were the only people who knew the fight. And the other 6 players just would not listen to our explanations, despite us using waymarks and everything. And then they would wonder why they kept dying...

People also don’t like being criticized. You can offer constructive criticism in the nicest way possible, and someone will still bite your head off over it. For some reason, they see it as a personal attack on their character if you offer advice like, “Try using X skill—it increases the damage you deal” or “When there are 3+ mobs, try pressing X AOE SKILL because things will die faster”. Or even mechanical things—I had a person in Orbonne whine at me when they failed Divine Retribution during Agrias (didn’t have a tether, but stood with the tethers and did not use the shield Duty Action), and when I told them they did the mechanic incorrectly and that was why they died (i.e., it was not a healing problem like they insisted it was), they whined some more (and then died twice more because they were too busy whining).

Not getting thanked for explanations can be a bit grating, but I got used to that a long time ago just though playing healing jobs. You can carry an entire alliance through a 24-man, healing and raising and dealing damage, and still the people who ate AOEs and died 5 times each boss won’t bother saying “Thanks for all those Raises you gave me!”


However, changing mindsets is a really hard thing to do. The Mentor system apparently works well in Japan, but they have a more collective mindset compared to Western countries. I won’t get into debates about which is a better mindset, and I don’t think the West should be “more like JP”—I’m just agreeing with the above poster that mindset is important. So long as “Mentors” just want the shinies and “Non-Mentors” don’t want to listen to the advice actual Mentors are giving out, nothing will really change.

The same people who want to do it now? The people who want Astrope. Like that's why anyone is doing mentor roulette in the first place. Not sure why you're strawmanning me saying that I'm asking for mentors to be anything, I literally said the system shouldn't be a thing because hardly anyone cares about it. The only people who want it to exist are people who want their crown pixels and a global chat.

Eh, not everyone cares about the mount, though I’m sure quite a few do—I’m not saying you’re wrong there, but some of us don’t care about it.

I started doing Mentor Roulette because I was bored and it was fun going through some of the older content it gives sometimes (not the Guildhests, but I actually find it fun to get EX primals in there sometimes). I couldn’t care less about Astrope or any of the other titles/rewards. I already have my desired title anyways lol.

Why bother making it a mentor roulette then? Why not just have it as a roulette for all of your currently unlocked content? That would ease queue times even more since everyone can do that roulette instead of just the select few that actually bother to get mentor status?

Mentor Roulette basically serves to fill waiting queues—it’s not just something that matches you with new players. I can get stuff in there with no new player bonuses at all. Most I wait for a queue to pop is 5~10 mins if I go DPS. But on healer my queues are almost always instant, and I imagine that tanks are the same.

[cicatriz313]

I wouldn’t generalize here. There are lots of folks that are mentors that are not just in it for the mount. The mount is a nice added bonus don’t get me wrong but I didn’t agree to be a mentor just so i could grind out one mount. I actually like helping people.

It's pretty easy to generalize based on experience, but I'm glad to know you exist. Also, if you like helping people you don't need a system to do it, right? So you could do away with the system still np.

Ok it seems the point was missed. I'll condense.

IF the current rewards are already struggling to draw people in for the queue (given the massive wait time on some peoples queue's for say old EX trials) what other rewards would you suggest be added?

I've never talked about the queue being long or anything? If the system currently isn't working, why would we leave it alone as you said to do? I'm saying the system isn't working, so what is the point of the system. We can keep the roulette for anyone who wants to continue progressing towards astrope without a silly crown or global chat. I personally don't have any desires in making old ex trials relevant in df again.

Eh, not everyone cares about the mount, though I’m sure quite a few do—I’m not saying you’re wrong there, but some of us don’t care about it.

I started doing Mentor Roulette because I was bored and it was fun going through some of the older content it gives sometimes (not the Guildhests, but I actually find it fun to get EX primals in there sometimes). I couldn’t care less about Astrope or any of the other titles/rewards. I already have my desired title anyways lol.

Mentor Roulette basically serves to fill waiting queues—it’s not just something that matches you with new players. I can get stuff in there with no new player bonuses at all. Most I wait for a queue to pop is 5~10 mins if I go DPS. But on healer my queues are almost always instant, and I imagine that tanks are the same.

I get that I over-generalized there, but it was in responding to someone else about who would run the roulette if the "mentor" part were removed. The answer was just saying that if the roulette existed without having mentorship attached to it, people would still run it even if the mentor system went away.

[HyoMinPark]

I get that I over-generalized there, but it was in responding to someone else about who would run the roulette if the "mentor" part were removed. The answer was just saying that if the roulette existed without having mentorship attached to it, people would still run it even if the mentor system went away.

Personally, I think the only people who would run a rewardless roulette would be the people who just want to run it for the sake of running it—kind of like myself and other Mentors who run it for fun/just to help and don’t care about the mount or the monocle thing or whatever.

I don’t think it was a good idea to lock desirable rewards like a two-seater mount behind the roulette, because I think it did attract some of the wrong sort of Mentors—however, I think the developers realized that without some sort of incentive, people just wouldn’t touch it at all (outside of those who just wanted to run it for fun), so they gave it incentive. I think the incentives could be up for change, but what they could be changed to, I cannot say.

We also get extra experience as a roulette when grouped with sprouts or returning players.

Just wanted to clarify—you cannot get extra experience through Mentor Roulette even with a new player bonus for a duty. You have to be on a level 70 job to queue up for Mentor Roulette in the first place. I believe you get a Gil bonus, but there is no experience bonus given to you through Mentor Roulette (or any duty you get where you are level-capped and there’s a new player).

[WaterShield]

It's pretty easy to generalize based on experience, but I'm glad to know you exist. Also, if you like helping people you don't need a system to do it, right? So you could do away with the system still np.



I've never talked about the queue being long or anything? If the system currently isn't working, why would we leave it alone as you said to do? I'm saying the system isn't working, so what is the point of the system. We can keep the roulette for anyone who wants to continue progressing towards astrope without a silly crown or global chat. I personally don't have any desires in making old ex trials relevant in df again.


I get that I over-generalized there, but it was in responding to someone else about who would run the roulette if the "mentor" part were removed. The answer was just saying that if the roulette existed without having mentorship attached to it, people would still run it even if the mentor system went away.

Well here's the rub... you need to recognize the purpose of the roulette (fill long running queues) and then justify how changing it would improve the situation. Removing the mentor part of it fixes nothing so it is pointless to do. So... either different incentives are needed or people need to treat mentors better in order for them to sick around.

[cicatriz313]

Well here's the rub... you need to recognize the purpose of the roulette (fill long running queues) and then justify how changing it would improve the situation. Removing the mentor part of it fixes nothing so it is pointless to do. So... either different incentives are needed or people need to treat mentors better in order for them to sick around.

You're focusing SOLELY on the roulette which is not the only part of what a mentor is meant to do? Removing mentors as a whole would certainly help the community as people wouldn't see some of the godawful players the keep crowns on now in dungeons and think that's the way to play. It would also kill the cesspool that is a lot of novice networks and give new players less of a view into the culture that is online cliques. Even if this doesn't help the roulette, there are other reasons to get rid of mentors as they pertain to this game, at least more reasons than there are to keep it the same. Lastly I don't know why you keep bringing up people treating mentors badly, if you just want to be a normal player and not be asked for help just take your crown off?

Personally, I think the only people who would run a rewardless roulette would be the people who just want to run it for the sake of running it—kind of like myself and other Mentors who run it for fun/just to help and don’t care about the mount or the monocle thing or whatever.

Point was that the roulette would stay the same, keep the same incentive for people who want to continue toward Astrope. It would have the same goal of helping fill in slots for old content but would just be removed from having anything to do with a mentor system because the mentor system isn't good.

[Aramina]

You're focusing SOLELY on the roulette which is not the only part of what a mentor is meant to do? Removing mentors as a whole would certainly help the community as people wouldn't see some of the godawful players the keep crowns on now in dungeons and think that's the way to play. It would also kill the cesspool that is a lot of novice networks and give new players less of a view into the culture that is online cliques. Even if this doesn't help the roulette, there are other reasons to get rid of mentors as they pertain to this game, at least more reasons than there are to keep it the same. Lastly I don't know why you keep bringing up people treating mentors badly, if you just want to be a normal player and not be asked for help just take your crown off?

But is *is* a part and removing it entirely solves nothing. Either a) not enough people are queueing for content that new players want to do or b) you still have players being jerks. A jerk with a crown is still going to be a jerk without a crown. The crown isn't the problem, it is the jerks that are a problem, and systems already exist to take care of that.

re: NN being a cesspool. That's going to vary by server, but again if people are being a problem: Report the people. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[HyoMinPark]

You're focusing SOLELY on the roulette which is not the only part of what a mentor is meant to do? Removing mentors as a whole would certainly help the community as people wouldn't see some of the godawful players the keep crowns on now in dungeons and think that's the way to play. It would also kill the cesspool that is a lot of novice networks and give new players less of a view into the culture that is online cliques. Even if this doesn't help the roulette, there are other reasons to get rid of mentors as they pertain to this game, at least more reasons than there are to keep it the same. Lastly I don't know why you keep bringing up people treating mentors badly, if you just want to be a normal player and not be asked for help just take your crown off?

I won’t speak for all servers, but for mine, our NN is actually very nice. Sprouts ask for help with queues or general questions, and they generally get answers to both. There’s a bit of memeing and it is like a general chat more times than not, but it still fulfills the purpose of asking questions and assisting baby players when said needs arise. However, I know this isn’t the case for all servers’ NNs—Cactuar’s has just always been very chill, but I think my server is chill in general. At least it’s always been in the 3.5 years I’ve been on it.

But is *is* a part and removing it entirely solves nothing. Either a) not enough people are queueing for content that new players want to do or b) you still have players being jerks. A jerk with a crown is still going to be a jerk without a crown.

Yeah, basically this. It may remove the power-tripping aspect, but it won’t really stop people from being twats.

[cicatriz313]

But is *is* a part and removing it entirely solves nothing. Either a) not enough people are queueing for content that new players want to do or b) you still have players being jerks. A jerk with a crown is still going to be a jerk without a crown. The crown isn't the problem, it is the jerks that are a problem, and systems already exist to take care of that.

re: NN being a cesspool. That's going to vary by server, but again if people are being a problem: Report the people. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

My point is simply if the system isn't working there's no reason to keep it, and this system is anti-working imo. I would argue that the crown itself is probably the biggest problem of the mentor system, in 11 it was a giant ugly M and I don't think anyone would want that next to their name lol. Like if you're arguing it's a good system, that's your point of view and considering we are both on midgard I'd ask you if you've seen the NN, but that'd be viable. But keeping a system where people are both turning off new players in NN and demonstrating bad play by wearing the crown isn't the same as keeping a system that just isn't helping.

I won’t speak for all servers, but for mine, our NN is actually very nice. Sprouts ask for help with queues or general questions, and they generally get answers to both. There’s a bit of memeing and it is like a general chat more times than not, but it still fulfills the purpose of asking questions and assisting baby players when said needs arise. However, I know this isn’t the case for all servers’ NNs—Cactuar’s has just always been very chill, but I think my server is chill in general. At least it’s always been in the 3.5 years I’ve been on it.

I guess I'm a cynic, but I've definitely seen more just global chat abuse and general meme'ing than any actual helping going on in ours. Got to the point where people would actively ask how to leave and eventually I just turned it off because a big kick war happened and I was getting spammed with notifications. These days I just try to help out in my fc as my helping outlet.

[Hash_Browns]

IMO, mentor system doesn't work because it has rewards locked behind it. Most mentors aren't doing the mentor roulette because they want to help people, most are doing it because it's a grind to a reward that they want.

If you really want to help people learn, a mount shouldn't be that push that you need to actually do it.

Now, I sure that most people who get into becoming a mentor think "I'll help people, and I'll get a mount - it's a win-win." and don't solely want to get in, and get out for that reward - but a grind is a grind, and I'm sure that attitude changes over time, which is why mentors are a running joke.