Male Viera as a playable character! show your support

[Quipsy]

I'd like to see more screenshots of people's makeshift viera, those are pretty fun!

I've seen a couple miqote viera, but the more the merrier. (Also it's a refreshing way to cool down, not unlike a tall glass of orange juice.)

[Roda]

The argument is that it's a difference that adds very little to them. Subjective, one might say, but if you're presenting it as a selling point, it falls flat for me.

On 2, yes, if you mean to compare them to rabbits or hares, their evolutionary history is distinctive and unique to them. Just by virtue of having rabbit ears creates no further obligation to introduce the myriad of other rabbit traits out there, much like miqo'te don't have claws or whiskers simply because they're related tangentially to cats. The point being that having rabbit ears commits SE to nothing further than that.

Ah, but they do? I mean the male claw hand posture is pretty well known, as is their /aback kitty claw paws. Females sprint fall, and /dance with a japanese stereotype "kitty paw" hand. Their inn bed animations have them grooming themselves to wake up. They have stripes, and the males have tear markings. My female miqo'te literally says "nyan" for one of her emotes (voice 3, /happy). And at least the sunseekers's society (the only miqo'te clan that exists according to SE's in-game representation >:T) is based off of lions where you have the Big Strong Man at the lead to look pretty for the females, and the smaller sleek females for the actual hunting. Miqo'te are VERY HEAVILY designed around being as cat-like as possible without being full-on anthro.
And for flavor reasons, yeah do more to make them more like their theming, or else you're just half-assing it and will end up with a human with animals ears, and that's boring! This is a fantasy race! MILK IT!!

Finally, I can "understand" why someone might be excited for it, but I don't care to see the max height options for males curtailed for that reason. Want them to be the same? Fine, whatever. But I do not want to see their height capped just to be "different" in a way I scarcely care about.

Oh sweetie, I'm not asking for them to lower the max height of the men!
I'm asking them to raise the max height for the females. >:3c
'Cause I really don't care for another shorter-than-males female race.

And on the other hand, they don't have claws,

they don't have whiskers,

beards

they don't have an allergy to water,

Neither do most wild cats

they don't have movable joints,

a.... bwh;
IF IT'S NOT MOVABLE IT'S A BONE. JOINTS MOVE???? THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO BY DEFAULT???????

they don't have excess skin that lets them "parachute" from heights.

Idk, I've never died from fall damage...

SE is very selective in what it does and does not use from each base species.

They're don't add EVERY SINGLE TRAIT of a cat, but they do add more than just Ear.

So there's nothing committing them to adding reverse gender dimorphism simply because rabbits exhibit it - perhaps the most obscure trait the species possesses.

I wouldn't call it obscure. When talking about rabbit morphology it's one of the big things to come up (at least when talking to breeders) in my experience. "They have big feet/powerful legs, so don't get bedding that mulches easily. They have long ears so look out for ear infections. The males are smaller so if you want a smaller pet get a male." It's like rabbit 101: Intro to rabbiting.
Something like that, something so different from a lot of other common animals, means it's pretty iconic to the species. Something a designer would keep in mind if they want to invoke the feeling of Magic Sapient Rabbit Elf.

Miqo'te borrow on traits that are visibly related to cats, for the most part, but even then, it's down to artistic choice/the rule of cool.

Larger females are cool B-)

Right, so if there's no inherent value in either gender being taller or shorter, why push it so hard as a trait for the race? Bear in mind I don't hugely care if they cap them at the same height as the females, particularly since the latter appear to have a fondness for high heels. I don't even mind if their slider goes lower than the female one at the minimum end.

Nah there's inherent value in females being taller for the reasons I've stated many many times! Subjectivity doesn't mean nothing is valid! :3
Also IMPLYING THE MALES SHOULDN'T ROCK HEELS.

It honestly sounds like an ideologically or conceptually motivated change more than anything else. Yes, the women being taller on average than the men is 'different'.

I mean yes, It's a conceptually motivated change. We're coming up with concepts of a design. That's how designs get made. o.0

Now, what does this fundamentally add to the race? New body types? New facial features? No, it adds nothing of the sort. Does it alter the female physiology? No, because that's already established. If you want a female "Amazon", roegadames and highlander females already exist, and of course Viera females, if you think they fit that rubric.

It adds a species that is fundamentally different than what we are used to, both in human morphology and in-game. A culture with beauty standards that don't have to conform with ours. A whole new perspective to explore and roleplay. We're not just looking at the viera female or male in a vacuum. We are looking at them together and how they interact. Yes, femroes and female highlanders are large and muscular, but compared to the males of their same race the men still take the show for that archetype. The roegadyn males being like twice as wide as the females, their dimorphism just being the horizontal version of au ra!! So reverse dimorphism adds a race with a different perspective on femininity and masculinity as compared to the rest of the races in-game, vs a inverse reverse dimorphism adding actually nothing.

It is solely a difference for its own sake and in just one area. "They're smaller because male rabbits are" is a difference inspired by a very obscure feature of rabbits, that won't make them particularly more relatable to the base species in the way the feline like poses of male miqo'te do.

I don't want something "relatable" to humans. I want something different. I want to play a fantasy. If I wanted something more human I'd play a hyur. (which I literally can't, they're so boring X_X)
And like the miqo'tes' poses aren't relatable, they look uncomfortable. Their society is weird and I would not go along with it personally, but it's fascinating to play a character to which that is normal. And their facial features are like really uncannily inhuman. (Their eyes compared to a hyur's eyes are CRAZY huge! Make my character hyper realistic and her alien bug-eyes would freak you out.)

Hrothgar at least feature a difference in that their facial design is radically unlike any present option available. That kind of difference is enough to make an impact on whether a race is played or not, although it's a gamble because it can go both ways and therefore not necessarily a positive, simply because it's a difference. We'll see how it pans out from SE's vantage point.

I do like the faces of the hrothgar, I just wish I could have a female character to be so primal and bestial. :T

Why would it not suffice for you to just push their minimum height option below the female one?

Oh I wouldn't mind that at all!
But why would it not suffice for you to push the females be above the male one?

Like, taking Fran as like the average representation of player viera: She's about the same height as max height female Elezen (~6'7") not including the ears
Viera Are Very Tall.
Especially if we're taking her as 50% (which I am since there's no real indication she's above or below average for her kind)
If we reverse the sexual dimorphism of the other races (au ra/lalafell not included) males at 50% would still be ~6'0". Taller than any midlander (third most played race), miqo'te(most played race both genders), female au ra (second most played race/gender combo), 99% of female Highlanders, and about the height of the shortest male highlander.
So at 50% you're already taller than most of the players in the game. So I'd say that qualifies the male viera still being a "tall race."

[Theodric]

I'd prefer Viera men to be as tall as the women at the very least.

Speaking of tall, I think it'd be near if they were at least as tall and as handsome as Snow from FFXII:



I reckon he'd look pretty neat with a pair of bunny ears. He's also imposing, without being overly rugged.

[Roda]

I'd prefer Viera men to be as tall as the women at the very least.

Speaking of tall, I think it'd be near if they were at least as tall and as handsome as Snow from FFXII:



I reckon he'd look pretty neat with a pair of bunny ears. He's also imposing, without being overly rugged.

Based on my theory crafting they'd definitely be his height in the upper quarter of the slider. '3'

Personally like if push comes to shove and it's either taller males or same size, I'd of course go same size. (because honestly a 7'10" model is getting quite excessive and any taller and the ears would be clipping through doors and low hanging items!)
But ideally, I would prefer the overlap to occur in the male's top 50% and the females bottom 50% so any male viera wanting to follow the rest of the races' trend of being taller than the females would be a good bit taller than the female viera wanting to make their tiny waifus, which I understand a good portion of people want (so that way the average use of the overlap means a good portion will follow the trend of taller males), but it still leaves room for the lore to create an interesting diversion from every other race in the game and allowing those who want to see something more unique to utilize it if they want. In my eyes it's the true compromise where both sides get to both play a tall bunny race, some males will be taller than some females, and the race will still follow rabbit dimorphism, adding a unique feature to the race that separates it from being yet another human but Weird Ears.

[Lauront]

*snip*

We're not going to agree on there being any intrinsic value in reverse gender dimorphism, for the simple reason that I don't consider any difference to have "inherent value" merely on account of being a difference. I don't think any of the above fundamentally addresses the points I've made with regard to that. It certainly is not something that SE will be able to elaborate enough on to be of any worth in an MMO, but that aside, I don't accept the premise that a difference is innately valuable. When I say it is purely a "conceptually" motivated change my point is that it's only adding variety in a very abstract sense. In roleplay terms you can just fashion your own headcanon around it, anyway.

I'm aware that miqo'te draw on some feline traits (and I meant shoulder blades, not joints). You're arguing in favour of basing Viera off a single one - and yes, it is fairly obscure, because your recourse is to state breeders are aware of the difference. I am sure they are, and a million other ones besides. It doesn't make it any less obscure or irrelevant as a trait that would stand out to the average player as relevant to rabbits. Not that I necessarily even think that need be the only thing they draw on, since their culture already has distinctive elements to it.

I don't care about whether the males are taller, as such. Yet if you think that the playerbase by and large thinks larger females are "cool", have a look at the played Roegadyn female stats. Traits you may think are intriguing could just come off as bizarre or unappealing to the wider playerbase. The Viera are already very distinct and different compared to humans, but we're already aware of their mating practices. They do not deviate much from those of humans in that regard in casting the males in the role of protectors of the forest. I could pick any other trait and say "well, it'd be much more interesting if the women were attracted to this, so it was prevalent in the male population", but whatever. They both rely on guerrilla warfare tactics and both reside in the trees, with the males being solitary and protecting the broader wood before any threats even get near to the villages - why would the females opt for shorter males in this scenario? At most you could make an argument that they would be of a similar height.

Still, you can take a more extreme height slider for Viera males (i.e. which allows them to reach below the female minimum) as a "unique" trait for them whilst leaving their maximum untouched, maybe at the same point as the female max height - again, "unique". I presume you wouldn't take that up because you basically want the females to be bigger, and on that, there's not much common ground to be had.

[Kazran]

You all should take a break from this thread.

edit:
Also another fanart



https://twitter.com/9_akim/status/1093155991674269697

I really like this! Adding it to my Viera Male look book!

[Theodric]

I think that there's a lot more interesting ways to make Viera men differ from the women without resorting to a striking height difference. I'd prefer to see both genders be of equal height when the slider is set at maximum. That way if specific individuals want to play a shorter Viera guy, they can set the slider right down to the lowest point. Many tall Viera women will tower over them, as will the taller races in general - but those of us who wish to play a tall Viera male will be able to play...a tall Viera male. Everybody wins in that scenario, except the players who want the Viera men to be taller than the women outright.

Which is, presumably, the approach that many involved in this particular debate seem to oppose. So having them be of equal height as a rule allows for the greatest portion of players advocating for Viera to be added to be appeased.

[Lauront]

except the players who want the Viera men to be taller than the women outright.

Or those pushing for the converse.

[Madiera]

I recently found some fanart by an artist named AIMiLO

[Roda]

We're not going to agree on there being any intrinsic value in reverse gender dimorphism, for the simple reason that I don't consider any difference to have "inherent value" merely on account of being a difference. I don't think any of the above fundamentally addresses the points I've made with regard to that. It certainly is not something that SE will be able to elaborate enough on to be of any worth in an MMO, but that aside, I don't accept the premise that a difference is innately valuable. When I say it is purely a "conceptually" motivated change my point is that it's only adding variety in a very abstract sense. In roleplay terms you can just fashion your own headcanon around it, anyway.

I mean it wouldn't be an abstract difference. It would be a very concrete difference. Males in this game are on average around 3 inches taller than their female counterparts (lalafell being identical, and au ra being nearly two whole feet). Having a race being the opposite where females are 3 inches taller than the males is a concretely, quantitatively different design than every other race. An abstract one would be "oh yeah the males just don't hear the will of the wood as clearly as the females" or something. THAT'S something you can headcanon around. Not "oh yeah my female Au Ra is actually 6'8", what do you mean she barely meets Magnai's navel?"

I'm aware that miqo'te draw on some feline traits (and I meant shoulder blades, not joints). You're arguing in favour of basing Viera off a single one - and yes, it is fairly obscure, because your recourse is to state breeders are aware of the difference. I am sure they are, and a million other ones besides. It doesn't make it any less obscure or irrelevant as a trait that would stand out to the average player as relevant to rabbits. Not that I necessarily even think that need be the only thing they draw on, since their culture already has distinctive elements to it.

I mean, human physiology has mobile shoulder blades too. We just don't animate it because, for our normal ranges of motion, it's not really something that catches the eye that much. Not gonna link it cause it's gross, but you can search "shoulder blade can crush" if you're curious.
And I'm not arguing basing viera off a single rabbit trait, because I'd like to keep their ears, their nose, and their feet (honestly I'm disappointed they don't have tails) as well as the females building the homes and the males staying out to guard it (now THAT'S an obscure Rabbit Fact(tm)!). And literally I'm like the person friends and family send their friends and families to to help them prepare for new pets, including rabbits. When I ask them what they know about their pets so I know what knowledge level I'm working with, people interested in rabbits mention the size difference. Idk what to tell you dude, but it's less obscure than "making waffles could kill your pet bird."

I don't care about whether the males are taller, as such. Yet if you think that the playerbase by and large thinks larger females are "cool", have a look at the played Roegadyn female stats. Traits you may think are intriguing could just come off as bizarre or unappealing to the wider playerbase.

Man, if you're gonna try to convince me against smaller males with mentioning female roes you got another thing comin, female roes are H*CKING GORGEOUS.
If you can argue against something because you, personally, don't consider variety valuable, then I can argue for something because I, personally, appreciate novelty. (and yes I do have a femroe alt. and yes she is an adorable musclebabe and I love her)

The Viera are already very distinct and different compared to humans, but we're already aware of their mating practices. They do not deviate much from those of humans in that regard in casting the males in the role of protectors of the forest. I could pick any other trait and say "well, it'd be much more interesting if the women were attracted to this, so it was prevalent in the male population", but whatever. They both rely on guerrilla warfare tactics and both reside in the trees, with the males being solitary and protecting the broader wood before any threats even get near to the villages - why would the females opt for shorter males in this scenario? At most you could make an argument that they would be of a similar height.

Because sexy doesn't always have to equal being super efficient at one thing. Why do most male birds have way more colorful plumage when most are prey animals shouldn't they all be super camouflage? Why do Peacocks have a long train that can get caught shouldn't they be super aerodynamic? Why are male rabbits smaller when they're supposed to patrol the outer reaches of their colonies and typically stay outside the breeding nests to protect the mother?������
Evolution isn't always so straight forward.

Still, you can take a more extreme height slider for Viera males (i.e. which allows them to reach below the female minimum) as a "unique" trait for them whilst leaving their maximum untouched, maybe at the same point as the female max height - again, "unique". I presume you wouldn't take that up because you basically want the females to be bigger, and on that, there's not much common ground to be had.

Like I'm not gonna raise a stink if that's the case, but I do think it's a pretty lame cop out. I've posted my own reasoning why a 50% overlap would be a decent compromise that allows the men who want to be taller than the tiny waifus to be taller than the tiny waifus and the women who want to be tiny waifus to be dwarfed by they tol husbandos (and the men wanting to be tiny waifus/women wanting to be taller husbandos, nonbinary, etc etc) while still having the novelty that TOTALLY ACTUALLY DOES HAVE VALUE OTHERWISE WHY HROTHGAR WHEN NO ONE PLAYS ROE. GYAAHH!!

I think that there's a lot more interesting ways to make Viera men differ from the women without resorting to a striking height difference. I'd prefer to see both genders be of equal height when the slider is set at maximum. That way if specific individuals want to play a shorter Viera guy, they can set the slider right down to the lowest point. Many tall Viera women will tower over them, as will the taller races in general - but those of us who wish to play a tall Viera male will be able to play...a tall Viera male. Everybody wins in that scenario, except the players who want the Viera men to be taller than the women outright.

Which is, presumably, the approach that many involved in this particular debate seem to oppose. So having them be of equal height as a rule allows for the greatest portion of players advocating for Viera to be added to be appeased.

Like I've said before, I don't want a striking difference. Just the inverse of the differences almost Every Other Race has. With that dimorphism they would still be tall. I wouldn't say my minimum height Elezen female isn't tall (I feel like a giant walking around with her, even around au ra males and roegadyn), and she would be about half the slider for Viera males, if we were going with the inverse dimorphism thing. If people want to play a race where the males tower over the females we have six races (separating midlanders and highlanders) available for them. If people want a race where there are no height differences, we have one (two if I get my hrothgal wish >:3c). If people want a race where the females on average are taller we have none. Sure, equal sliders is balanced in a vacuum, but in the larger picture it really doesn't add much to the game's racial lineup, and people wanting a tall male viera would still be tall compared to most of the game's population (and if they're 100% slider, ~50% of female viera, most likely more due to the waifu factor) under a reverse dimorphism system. I just don't see the perspective where "females are comparatively taller than males means males are short" when the viera are already an incredibly tall race. /shrug