Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Izsha]

DPS is not just dealing damage, as Kalise stated. Mechanically speaking, the jobs get a pretty even split in what the encounter demands on them. In terms of party play, it isn't tanks managing resources, and arguably isn't even tanks managing threat at this point.

In other trinity games, the tank exclusive responsibility list looks something like

Mitigation
Threat
Positioning
Interception
Focus Targeting
Vulnerability Application

In Final Fantasy it's

Interception

Everything else is shared by every party member except Positioning, which the Boss has increasingly been doing itself.

It's no wonder Tanks echo the statement "There's nothing else to do but optimize damage", and frankly, optimizing damage on a tank isn't all that interesting because there's so few moving levers.

Its shared, but you cant just delete everything off the list. Mitigation is still predominately in the tank. Just because a dps can assist with a phy damage down action occasionally doesnt mean it is not the tanks primary function to mitigate. That goes for most of the rest of that list. In the same way that a tank assists with dps diesnt remove dps as the function of a mnk.

Shared responsibility does not mean it is not a tank function when the bulk of that responsibility still lays with the tank. It just takes the edge off the burden and associated tank anxiety when your party can assist you and that is one of the reasons tanks have a higher play rate in this game.

[Kalise]

Its shared, but you cant just delete everything off the list. Mitigation is still predominately in the tank. Just because a dps can assist with a phy damage down action occasionally doesnt mean it is not the tanks primary function to mitigate. That goes for most of the rest of that list. In the same way that a tank assists with dps diesnt remove dps as the function of a mnk.

Shared responsibility does not mean it is not a tank function when the bulk of that responsibility still lays with the tank. It just takes the edge off the burden and associated tank anxiety when your party can assist you and that is one of the reasons tanks have a higher play rate in this game.

I'd like to point out that they were using a list of Tank Exclusive Responsibility.

Not just "Tank Responsibility" - Implying that those things are not the responsibility of the Tank in XIV.

That said, I'd argue that FFXIV has more Tank Exclusivity on Mitigation than other games, due to other games featuring healers with CD's that mitigate Tankbusters which are balanced around (Which is why you might see games where a Tank only has 1 CD skill, because during raids the 2-4 healers provide the rest and the final one is Tank Swap time). While in XIV it's only Palisade/Apoc that is outside of Tanks kits, which isn't really balanced around as its predicated on having certain classes.

[Kabooa]

I'd like to point out that they were using a list of Tank Exclusive Responsibility.

Not just "Tank Responsibility" - Implying that those things are not the responsibility of the Tank in XIV.

That said, I'd argue that FFXIV has more Tank Exclusivity on Mitigation than other games, due to other games featuring healers with CD's that mitigate Tankbusters which are balanced around (Which is why you might see games where a Tank only has 1 CD skill, because during raids the 2-4 healers provide the rest and the final one is Tank Swap time). While in XIV it's only Palisade/Apoc that is outside of Tanks kits, which isn't really balanced around as its predicated on having certain classes.

Dismantle, Troubadour, Addle, Feint, Eye for an Eye.

Since mitigation also includes EHP there's Wanderer's and Chakra

This list was more extensive before things were condensed and / or removed.

[Izsha]

In the context of "should tanks be more complex" discussion exculsivity isnt really important.

Does drg need to dumb down its rotation because they have 1 ogcd action that helps tanks mitigate occasionally?

On the reverse, does a tank need to increase its rotation complexity because it has 1 ogcd action that mitigates damage? Oh wait. The actions to mitigate are half of the tank kit. So the fact that it isnt exclusive to tanks kinda falls flat. T

Thats not apples to apples. Tanks have to handle the bulk of mitigation in far more complex ways than a drg assists woth a single ogcd action. If you are arguing that the responsibility must be exclusive to justify simpler rotations that doesnt fly because the weight of those actions is far heavier on tanks than a drg and should have a commensurate adjustments to complexity.

You could make an argument that it has swung 'to far' towards simplicity, which is fine. But exclusivity is a terrible barometer. If no other job had a mitigation tool except tanks and tanks had a single mitigation action (say ,tbn for example) then mitigation is now exclusive, but that means jack squat regarding complexity.

Exclusivity is still a horrible barometer.

[whiskeybravo]

DPS is not just dealing damage, as Kalise stated. Mechanically speaking, the jobs get a pretty even split in what the encounter demands on them. In terms of party play, it isn't tanks managing resources, and arguably isn't even tanks managing threat at this point.

In other trinity games, the tank exclusive responsibility list looks something like

Mitigation
Threat
Positioning
Interception
Focus Targeting
Vulnerability Application

In Final Fantasy it's

Interception

Tanks are still responsible for the majority of self mitigation and threat. Even if you say that DPS are (or can be) responsible for their own aggro, it still has to be accomplished in reality.

Let's say we are in an encounter where the boss spawns an add that can one shot a dps or healer:

- If the tank doesn't pick up the add quick and you got shanked because you started attacking it right away, are you blaming the tank or yourself?
- Then, do you wait for the tank to attack, or do you demand that the tank pick it up as fast as you attack it?
- What if he picks it up but you pull aggro and die. Do you blame yourself for not managing threat, or do you blame the tank?
- What if you already used threat drop? Is it on you to adjust the timing so it lines up with the add, or is it on the tank to do an aggro combo since the group's threat drops are down from an earlier phase?

It's on the tank in pretty much every case regardless of what the DPS does or doesn't do. If you want to do something like tank an expert dungeon in 100% DPS stance, maintaining aggro without the assistance of tank stance requires more than a diversion/lucid every 2 minutes. Sprinkle in a couple overzealous DPS who like to pull for you, and you'll quickly find yourself fumbling for an aggro combo.

In short, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You don't take the top optimization techniques of "spreading aggro responsibility around so the tanks can achieve higher damage" and apply it to the general population as a given reality.

Positioning requirements have been relaxed as of late, but in the event the boss doesn't position itself, the only other person capable of, and generally responsible for, moving it is the tank. A tank can't honestly delegate this responsibility to someone else (sure, you can shirk a DPS so they can tank it..)

I'm sure you're using the term "focus targeting" to indicate something other than what is known as "focus target" in FFXIV. If you're referring to setting attack priority, I realized the futility of that a long time ago so if it's not an aoe pull I just adjust to whichever target the DPS is focusing. (wait a sec, we can't even rely on DPS to rationalize a series of numbers, yet you are setting the bar for them to manage aggro and party mitigation)

As for vulnerability application, I don't have much to comment either. I wouldn't really see a problem with giving tanks a form of trick attack instead of dps, because at least there is always a tank in the party. The only other things along this line tanks have generally been responsible for is stun/silence.

[Kabooa]

Let's say we are in an encounter where the boss spawns an add that can one shot a dps or healer.

And that's interception. The only archetypal tank assignment left that they solely do.

The 'self' mitigation in this game is largely focused around scripted tankbusters. There's not a whole lot of decision making during most of these segments. You've already planned out your CD pairing.

Not really the tank's fault there, that's on encounter design. Midgard clearly being an attempt to throw a wrench in those gears, but even then, if you're left without a CD of your own, Dismantle, Palisade etc can come on in and pretend to be a Paladin.

[Izsha]

So is it because tanks mitigation isnt "decision making" heavy enough, or because it's not 'exclusive'?

I get that you think combos are boring and tanks should be more complex, but I'm not sure what your expecting. Even dps in this game have very little complexity by that measure. Dps jobs arent terribly more complex or have thought provoking decision making. They have combos same as tanks to rotate between. In fact, they all have the same 2-3 combos tanks have. They have a number of ogcds you generally spam on CD just like tanks, just a few more of them. Everything is on a 60/90/120 timer so if you just spam asap you generally are optimal with the only variation being fight specific mechanics, just like tanks.

Mitigation and enmity arent terribly complex and scripted.

This games framework is straightforward rotations that are slightly adapted for each fights script.

Tanks are simpler than an already simple dps, but they have some other fairly simple tasks to take their place. Same as healers.

If you want to up the complexity of the game as a whole, be my guest, but targeting tanks specifically on lack of decision making and rotational complexity is a bit odd when the entire game is nothing more than applying minor tweaks to a jobs rotation to fit a scripted encounter.

Ffxiv is simply not a creative, critical thinking, or hard to execute game. It's an mmo for the masses.

[Kabooa]

I know you don't interact with me beyond some threads we might come across in, but in general I'm not a pro-dps/ pro-healer when it comes to these discussions about job depth.

I think most of them have plenty of room to add more into. It's not just tanks.

[whiskeybravo]

I think most of them have plenty of room to add more into. It's not just tanks.

I get what you are saying, I really do. But in context of the thread, I don't think that MT/OT split solves any of these underlying issues. (which I've already lost track if you're for or against, regardless). Unless we are looking at a complete battle system revamp, we are most likely stuck in this box of combo chains and rigid cooldown usage.

I think the better idea, at least better in my opinion according to your particular issue, is to just have jobs which are more technical and jobs which are less technical. People who what to play a complex and technical job, there you go, and for people who don't just take your pick of all these other jobs. Not every job has to be overly complex or dynamic, mainly because this is a niche desire. A game like Sekiro can be praised for it's difficulty and complexity, but that doesn't mean it's a game everyone will be able to play, beat, or even enjoy. As Izsha says, this is a game made for the masses, not for the niche hardcore that enjoys self mutilation, though they certainly have tried to appease that portion of the playerbase.

[Izsha]

I know you don't interact with me beyond some threads we might come across in, but in general I'm not a pro-dps/ pro-healer when it comes to these discussions about job depth.

I think most of them have plenty of room to add more into. It's not just tanks.

If you just want more general complexity and challenge, theres nothing wrong with that, but I dont think splitting mt/ot is the right forum to make that case. That is a broad, gamewide change in direction. Regardless of if se goes with 4 tanks or 2/2 tanks, that really doesnt have anything to do with decision making or complexity. It's an unrelated topic.