Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Kabooa]

This is a bit of a stretch. They don't have their own advantages and weaknesses.

You can paint a broad brush theoretically but it doesn't actually hold up in reality.

Shelltron is bad against multiple hits, but strong against singular hits.

TBN is good against multiple hits to a cap, and can prevent effects that require taking at least one point of damage. Costs upfront MP to use. As Dark Knight gets more Blood based abilities the intrinsic value of TBN will shift greatly.

Inner Beast has no cap on the amount of damage it is good against (Barring your death) and even gives you a nice little bump of health for using it. (But Fell Cleaves. That was the joke, Kalise.)

In previous posts in other threads I've admitted that those who play the jobs exclusively probably have more nuance into their differences, but I frankly don't care to find the difference. Things will vary based on the encounter that will change your priority, but I hardly see it changing so much on the tanks compared to, say, Black Mage, and juggling procs and cooldowns.

Clearly it's just an opinion. They have little difference to me. I would like to see them have greater differences, and I'd like to see Gunbreaker come in being different at a baseline.

Tanks don't need a threat combo. Because they hardly need it aside from pre-tank stance. They need something that establishes threat, and while that has been a toss and combo, that isn't to say they can't have it another way.

[whiskeybravo]

Tanks don't need a threat combo. Because they hardly need it aside from pre-tank stance. They need something that establishes threat, and while that has been a toss and combo, that isn't to say they can't have it another way.

The problem is we start getting into the area of "well some tanks need an aggro combo", whether it's because they are new players or because they don't give a flip about how to play. That's also the main reason I don't rail against tank stances, they are there for people that need them, and for people that don't, well don't worry about it.

Now we can say that we should raise the bar and make players learn how to manage without these crutches, but that's a different topic that requires going further into subjective analysis the deeper we go.

[xxvaynxx]

I think mr.happy explained this pretty well. Should check out his recent Mondays Q&A.

[Izsha]

I think mr.happy explained this it pretty well. Should check out his recent Mondays Q&A.

Explained what? I'd rather not slog through the least concise ffxiv youtuber without knowing what subject I'm listening for.

[Kalise]

The problem is we start getting into the area of "well some tanks need an aggro combo", whether it's because they are new players or because they don't give a flip about how to play. That's also the main reason I don't rail against tank stances, they are there for people that need them, and for people that don't, well don't worry about it.

Ehh... Aggro combo's aren't "Necessary". Even for total scrublords that can't tell which end of the axe to hit bad people with.

Enmity combos and by extension, Tank Stances that are focused on being massive damage downs and massive enmity ups (With the actual defence aspect being largely moot given the way the game is currently set up) are only necessary when there's a need for continuous enmity generation.

However, between things like Circle-Shirk, CD's like Diversion, Lucid Dream, Tactician/Refresh - What actually ends up being the case is that BURST enmity is required. You basically want to generate a bunch of enmity right on the pull and burst back up towards the tail end of detaunt CD's to tide you over for when they become available again and push non-Tanks back down the enmity list.

If people are using their tools right, then the only time that consistent enmity generation is required, is when you're significantly undergeared compared to DPS/Healers (Which is easily adjustable by making enmity for Tanks scale slightly faster than DPS/Healers but peak off earlier)

Thus, all that is necessary, is some way to burst out enmity at timely intervals. Which can be done with high enmity oGCD skills like Onslaught/Equilibrium/DA Dark Passenger/DA Plunge along with some manner of baseline bump in Tank enmity gain (To offset the fact that DPS will be doing ~2x more DPS)

There isn't much leeway for weaponskill combos. We need a combo to establish and maintain hate. And we need a combo that doesn't. At least within the frame of weaponskill combos as they currently exist.

Ehh, there's plenty that can be done with weaponskill combos and general playstyle.

For example, Dragoon uses a 5 chain combo (Their 2x 123 combos lead into Fang and Claw/Wheeling Strike which then procs the ability to use the other skill) instead of the standard 3 chain combo.

Dork Knight has their Dork Arts to weave into their combos (Admittedly, a bit too frequently... How to get RSI in 1 easy step: Play DRK xD)

Monk has their unique thing where they progress multiple combo skills at once, allowing them freedom to use whichever 123 steps they want.

There's no reason a melee job couldn't also emulate Bard's kit. Where there's 1 filler skill and then a bunch of procs and oGCD's to weave in.

Heck, SMN's kit can also function in melee given that during Trance its literally spamming instant casts in lieu of being a traditional "Caster"

Melee jobs and Tanks are not bound by the need to have just 123 combos and that's it. With all 3 tanks having essentially the same 123 combos (The only difference is that DRK doesn't have a 3rd 3 to use for maintenance, they only have Power Slash and Soupeater. Compared to PLD with Rage of Halone/Goring Blade/Royal Authority and WAR with Butcher's Block/Storm's Path/Storm's Eye).

There's plenty of space to work with to create interesting skillsets that either utilize something in addition to a set of 123 combos (Like SAM's Iaijutsu and NIN's Ninjutsu), go beyond a standard 123 combo (Such as DRG's 12345 combos or MNK's flexible combos), or totally disregard combo's completely (Such as BRD).

Like, take a look at pretty much every other MMO out there, not every melee class is running around with 123 combos. Many have unique playstyles. A popular one is a combo points system where you have like 2-3 skills that build up combo points and like 3-4 combo point spenders that deal more damage the more combo points you consume with it (Usually stacking up to 5 combo points) - Notably seen in WoW's Rogue. You also have plenty of "Priority" based gameplay, where you have a filler skill and then a bunch of GCD actions with different reuse timers (Or resource costs such as Rage as seen in WoW on Warriors and Bear Druids) that you prioritize what you spend your GCD on.

[xxvaynxx]

Explained what? I'd rather not slog through the least concise ffxiv youtuber without knowing what subject I'm listening for.

Explaining the whole thing about Yoshi wanting to balance the tanks as MT and OT.

[Izsha]

Explaining the whole thing about Yoshi wanting to balance the tanks as MT and OT.

Strongly suspect it's just him speculating and rambling on the same interview answer yoshi gave that spawned this as opposed to actual new information, but I'd love to be wrong.

Edit: holy crap. 38 minute video. This dude cant be direct to save his life. This is gonna suuuuuuck

Edit2. Yup. Just happy speculating on what yoshi meant. No actual new info basically saying the new design will just continue the current trend the way old is a better OT and war is better MT (quoting snapnaggro) and instead of drk being a pivot it will pick a side and gun take the other. Nothing that hasn't been brought up in this thread.

[MagiusNecros]

MrHappy talks way too much about so little that it isn't worth the time wasted on pointless speculation.

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Only thing the MT/OT split will boil down is either the more likely that PLD/DRK will be more effective in a MT role and WAR/GB in a OT role OR they are introducing new encopunters that require both MT's and OT's. Maybe even 4 Tank duties/encounters.

Most likely the former. Dunno how that will work though since WAR can already function as a MT just fine as well.

[Aurelius2625]

To be honest, as a tank main.... I don't really respect Mr. Happy's take on this. I'd rather hear from Violent Destruction, Xeno, or other tank mains that can elaborate more on this. Pigeonholing classes into roles like "Shield Healer" "Regen Healer" has NOT worked out for healers and has led to a huge imbalance between them that needs to be corrected. Forcing one into the "Off tank" and "Main Tank" roles is LITERALLY what the good tanks who are veterans and pros have been fighting against for a very long time.

Every balance guide tries to desperately teach new tanks that want to optimize that this "One tank job is the main tank, one job is the off tank" schtick is worthless garbage. The Devs in their ignorance are trying to force upon the tank community something that is not needed, and will actively undo a LOT of progress to get tanks to understand that all tanks can be main or off tanks. Now, those same people are going to have actual ammunition because they can say, "SEE it says here you are the OFF tank, I'M going to main tank"

[Aurelius2625]

Also, let me clarify my position: I"m saying that tanks should be able to BE ABLE TO CLEAR CONTENT JUST AS WELL AS ANY OTHER TANK IN THE MAIN OR OFF TANK ROLE. Not that they should be EXACTLY the same just with reskins. How the devs ACHIEVE this ability to clear just as good as the others is where the unique quirks of the jobs come into play. This is where you get the variety in active and passive mitigation, similar amounts of damage, but achieved in different ways, different utilities that are unique and add to the raid, but are different from each other, where you feel like you can get creative with tanks in your comp to achieve different results by mixing different tanks together, just as it should be for healers. You shouldn't go "that healer is shit, switch to SCH or AST", no, healers, like the tanks jobs should have no stinkers that stick out. It should be more like a rock paper scissors scenario, where each have strengths and drawbacks that compliment the raid.