The "Wow Refugee's" impact on the FFXIV Community?

[Liam_Harper]

One thing I notice FF14 has that WoW simply doesn't have is Practice groups in the Party Finder. And overall they're quite nice, I've got all of my initial SB EX Primal clears through Practise groups. You get your mix of bad groups and good ones but overall it's a reasonable experience.

In WoW as soon as week 1 has passed, all the party finder groups are 10-20ilv higher than the loot that drops from that instance, must have multiple clears, will check your score on third party websites. And if you dare wipe the abuse and insults start raining down. Maybe others have different experiences, but I've preferred pugs in FF14.

[Imuka]

And to fit in with the topic of this thread, the reasons I've seen WoW players give for not liking FFXIV tend to be about the longer GCD (which I personally prefer)

I believe this is caused by the way the Classes evolve, when a Player levels them.
We have the same Number of Skills like with Level 60, but now streched to Level 70 and ShB will strech that to 80.
This makes the leveling Process more and more boring over time and some Classes are even with Level 50 pretty boring and miss a lot of Skills to make them fun to play.
This can make a lot of Players feel bored, when they reach the end of ARR.

must have multiple clears, will check your score on third party websites. And if you dare wipe the abuse and insults start raining down.

This is exactly what we had with Zurvan Ex and Shinryu Ex.
I remember when some Players looked up the FFLogs Page of others or they needed to either Show a Zurvan/Shinryu Weapon as a proof or that they own Token of those Fights.
And the old FF14 Catchphrase of the Partyfinder "Fail = Kick + Blacklist".

[AxlStream]

This is exactly what we had with Zurvan Ex and Shinryu Ex.
I remember when some Players looked up the FFLogs Page of others or they needed to either Show a Zurvan/Shinryu Weapon as a proof or that they own Token of those Fights.
And the old FF14 Catchphrase of the Partyfinder "Fail = Kick + Blacklist".

Roll it back there sister. The reason we had those is because of how laughably bad our average is. Skipping soar even on release, without savage level gear, was easy for anyone with 2 active brain cells. Shinryu, people just kept being blindsided by the mechanics like Tidal Wave and Icicles which are the most telegraphed attacks we've ever seen in EX content.

[frostmagemari]

For me, there is a difference between:"Always completly sticking to the formula" and "Knowing what the Players like but going for a little twist.".

The reason why many Players remember Badrams is the second Mini Game Boss. It was different and not another "Punch it in the face Boss" and the Players enjoyed that.
And we got something like this just a single time in the whole Stormblood Addon.
The Players like Bosses in a Dungeon, but that does not mean, that every Boss needs to be a "Punch them in the Face" Boss.
It was still a Boss, but with a little twist.


Sticking to the formula is: Trash, Boss, Trash, Boss, Trash/Mini Boss, Endboss in every Dungeon.
Why not: Puzzle Boss, Mini Boss, Trash+Boss, Mini Boss+Trash, Endboss. Still 3 Bosses and things in between, but with some small changes.
I wish the Devs would see those as Elements they can mix in several Ways. And give us the Puzzle Rooms back.
Maybe a Dungeon that is a Tower and to enter it, we need to do a Machine Puzzle Boss.
After that we have a Mini Boss inside who is the Doorkeeper, from that we move upwards and see how they started to line up a defense against us, with Trashmobs and a Boss.
Later we get ambushed by a Mini Boss with some Trash and then we reach the Endboss at the top.
Sounds like fun for me. I would like to see the Devs see al those Elements as something they can combine in many different ways.

It would not change a lot in the first moment, but it would make the Dungeons feel a bit different.
And those are things, I would like to see from the Devs.

Your post kind of touches on what i feel about the formula that they stick to (there is a much larger formula that they stick to as well that needs to be livened up as well).

Honestly, i think they do need to take a bit of a flip through on earlier WoW ideas and implement some of the ideas here (if they're not going to come up with their own)
Take the lich king fight in the Halls of Reflection.
For those not familiar with the fight, you are escaping from Icecrown citadel and being chased by the Lich king at a point you are not strong enough to try and face him. You don't actually fight him directly though, your goal is to make it to the escape point while being assisted by an NPC (Jaina for alliance); during the escape, the lich king brings up walls of ice to block your path while summoning undead. The mechanics of the fight amount to you having to protect the NPC from adds (of various strengths and abilities) while they bring down the walls blocking your path.
The kicker of the fight is though, is that it's also a time trial, as if the Lich king ever reached you the passive AoE swirling around him will kill you in a matter of seconds.

In Utgarde Pinnacle (i believe), there was a lead up to the boss fight where the boss would strafe down the left or right side of the large arena. You fought to get to him in a gauntlet against packs of mobs placed at the beginning, two in the middle and one pack at the very end (with small trash packs spawning through the whole encounter); Your goal was to fight your way to the end and then use the harpoons that the mobs dropped to bring the boss down to the ground when he came by for his strafing runs. Once he was on the ground, the adds stopped spawning and you had a mostly normal boss fight.

Both of these are mostly add based boss events, but they're both very different from each other; XI dungeons don't really have much in the way of differences except for the kind of AoE abilities the fight will introduce.

SQE doesn't need to do exactly this, but adding in boss fights that aren't simply tank 'n spanks will give people reason to enjoy doing them.

Moving on from that, the over-arcing formula is clear to most as well. Everyone knows how the patch progression will go in terms of raid, alliance raid, which patch will give a new trial, which patches will usually introduce the "flavour of the expansion" event like diadem or eureka, etc...

[Imuka]

Sounds like you want some novelties in dungeons. Novelties are fine until most people find a way to just run through them in the most efficient way possible, thus lowering their value. Bardam's second boss is definitely unique, but it's just another boss after having run it multiple times on multiple characters/jobs.

I don't mind such things myself, but unless there is a purpose behind it other than just to be different, I don't think it would matter much to the state of the game overall. Dungeons have a specific purpose in FFXIV and the current formula fits that purpose nicely as it is.

This will always happen with everything, but just look how streched the Skill Progress of the Bluemage is with RNG, because they wanted to counter the Players rushing through it.
For the rushers it was a few days of binge clearing Ex Primals and a large Part of the Community dropped him, when he reached Lvl 50 and they were sick of redoing the same fights dozens of times.

I mean, there are Players who finish Dark Souls 1 in around an hour, but I would not want them, to say "Nah, scrap half of the Design and male it a tube, to strech it for the Players who will rush it.".
They will always rush those Content, but never try something new with the Dungeons, because those Players will rush it, is just a waste of opportunity to do great.

I liked how Coil and Alex had those Map Areas before we encountered the Boss. It gave the whole Area some kind of scale and made it feel like we were not just in a Arena to fight.
And they dropped it, because Players who see everything outside throwing a Dice for their Loot as wasted time.

Now, with everybody living in Eureka for the Stones, they can give us Dungeons that Players who want to enjoy the Dungeon can enjoy.
I rellay enjoyed the "Swallow's Compass". Sure, it could be rushed like crazy, but it was nice to look at. The Colors were beautiful, the Areas showed some variety and the Music was very nice.
I really like when the Dungeons come with a large Color palette and multiple different Areas.
Maybe with some variety with the pieces it could have been the best Dungeon of Stormblood.

Moving on from that, the over-arcing formula is clear to most as well. Everyone knows how the patch progression will go in terms of raid, alliance raid, which patch will give a new trial, which patches will usually introduce the "flavour of the expansion" event like diadem or eureka, etc...

And I am okay with the over-arcing Formula. But I wish the Devs would be a bit more creative with what they can with Content like Dungeons.
They are casual Content, they are made to chill, enjoy and be nice to look at.
So, they can bring more variety into them.
Especially with everybody farming Stones in Eureka. I love Dungeons. They are one of the Reasons why I play 14 and I want them to be as great as possible.

[frostmagemari]

And I am okay with the over-arcing Formula. But I wish the Devs would be a bit more creative with what they can with Content like Dungeons.
They are casual Content, they are made to chill, enjoy and be nice to look at.
So, they can bring more variety into them.
Especially with everybody farming Stones in Eureka. I love Dungeons. They are one of the Reasons why I play 14 and I want them to be as great as possible.

I am -almost- okay with over arcing formula.. but the issue i have is, is knowing how the expansion content will be released to this level is what makes people plan to take patches off because they know X Y and Z patches won't give them what they're looking for; which results in less overall revenue for the game and it's future content.

[linay]

I believe this is caused by the way the Classes evolve, when a Player levels them.
We have the same Number of Skills like with Level 60, but now streched to Level 70 and ShB will strech that to 80.
This makes the leveling Process more and more boring over time and some Classes are even with Level 50 pretty boring and miss a lot of Skills to make them fun to play.
This can make a lot of Players feel bored, when they reach the end of ARR.

There is a limit to the number of skills you can have. So it's either stretch the distribution of skills or frontload it at lower levels and give almost nothing at the end. The latter option would make leveling up feel less rewarding unless you offset it by giving meaningful passive traits instead, which I don't necessarily like either.

I really like when the Dungeons come with a large Color palette and multiple different Areas.
Maybe with some variety with the pieces it could have been the best Dungeon of Stormblood.

Shadowbringers might have some colorful dungeons.

I am -almost- okay with over arcing formula.. but the issue i have is, is knowing how the expansion content will be released to this level is what makes people plan to take patches off because they know X Y and Z patches won't give them what they're looking for; which results in less overall revenue for the game and it's future content.

I think I heard/read that Yoshida is fine with people not subscribing continuously.

Either way, I'm ok with it as well and probably would take breaks myself if I don't enjoy participating in FC activities, which I do, so I log in regularly in case there is FC activity other than working on my own personal goals. In fact, as far as working on my personal goal, I like the deterministic nature of how some reward is given in FFXIV. RNG never appeals to me in terms of rewards. Knowing what to do and how long to work on something to get what I want makes it more worthwhile to set as goals.

[frostmagemari]

I think I heard/read that Yoshida is fine with people not subscribing continuously.

Well yeah.. No company is going to say "you have to subscribe every single month or you're not a fan" and attempt to browbeat others into showing that they're true fans like some players do.
It's not rocket science to figure out though that if people do take regular breaks because they know October's patch will never be for them and they can resub in January when content they do want will be relevant for a few months, then they can skip April's patch (etc), it will result in less money for the game; and then it's even easier to figure out that means less money for the development staff because the bean counters in charge will see that the game is only making X revenue and the company's money would be better placed somewhere else.

[linay]

Well yeah.. No company is going to say "you have to subscribe every single month or you're not a fan" and attempt to browbeat others into showing that they're true fans like some players do.
It's not rocket science to figure out though that if people do take regular breaks because they know October's patch will never be for them and they can resub in January when content they do want will be relevant for a few months, then they can skip April's patch (etc), it will result in less money for the game; and then it's even easier to figure out that means less money for the development staff because the bean counters in charge will see that the game is only making X revenue and the company's money would be better placed somewhere else.

Then obviously they would know that as well, and since they didn't change, then it supports the idea that they're ok with that, and maybe even design the game so that people could choose to take a break.

[frostmagemari]

Then obviously they would know that as well, and since they didn't change, then it supports the idea that they're ok with that, and maybe even design the game so that people could choose to take a break.

Finance departments don't look at a single year, they look at trends. If they keep to the release schedule there will be a trend of declining revenue and they will push for ways the increase revenue without pouring more money into the game. This means a heavier reliance on releasing cash shop items or scaling back the team that is responsible for those projects because they don't produce as much revenue but still cost the same to upkeep.

No company, absolutely not a single one is okay with not making as much money as they can. It's what a business is designed to do.. and if the finance departments don't make recommend scaling back low performing sections then their job is in danger.
So yeah, the "we don't mind if you unsub for months on end" is not the official stance of SQE; it's the friendly stance of someone who does more PR than programming.