Why having a dedicated MT and dedicated OT is a TERRIBLE idea

[Kalise]

its free just use it and enjoy it, necesary meaby not meaby yes, but they still are there, they still are usefull just use it.

Yes, I use it.

But to generate LB. If it didn't generate extra LB, there'd be no reason to use them (Especially Divine Fail which actually requires a heal to be cast in order to activate the shield in the first place)

its simple only 1 pair will have aoe shields for example, the other can have other stuff, things like that, i dint say any moment 1 pair mitigating better or cheesing better TB at all, it will create diversity, not like all tanks being able to do the same.

But now you're opening up the idea where if one pair has AoE shields, the other pair needs something that brings what the AoE shields do. Otherwise people will try and run both the AoE shield tanks because that's how you generate more LB and more LB = more DPS.

If you then balance the other pair so that they have something equivalent to the AoE shields... Then congratulations, you've literally just employed the balancing of all 4 tanks around a similar level of utility

idk why you consider the MT-OT comps are going to fail and ppl will bring double whatever without considering or going deep of what can be have to prevent this.

Because history shows that people will do what they need to in order to get the best DPS output.

This includes things like tanking things in DPS stance because the DPS gained from the Tank > the DPS lost from the Healer having to heal more.

The only ways to prevent these scenarios is by FORCING these sub-roles to be necessary. Which is a great way to literally destroy any and all 8 man content in the Duty Finder, by making the least popular role now be split between "MT" and "OT" sub-roles where one of each is mandatory.

tank equality dont exist, you can't make every tank do the same, for that dont add new tanks.

You can easily make tank equality. By just removing the inequal parts of their kits that divide them based on how well they can perform the same role.

WAR is the only tank that can use unchained and enjoy 10 seconds of tank stance and equilibirum with minimun cost, PLD and DRK will just waste resources a entire oGCD the second they do that and WAR can save his fell cleave until come back to deliverance (if you empty you gauge first of course) and make his principal source of dps stay intact, i can't archive the same with DRK.

1) Yes, WAR can use Unchained. I specifically even mentioned that. Outside of Unchained, WAR loses the most damage to be in Tank stance.

2) I'm still curious about what situation we're talking about with Tank stances actually being used. Since most of the time, they're only used for the pull. In which case, DRK is competitive with WAR because it can generate enmity quickly (With DA Plunge/DA Dark Passenger. To be honest, I've been using a lot of DA Power Slash recently because it generates TONS of enmity for all of 1 lacklustre damage combo into an instant oGCD removal of grit)

second you complety miss upheaval do more damage on defiance, WAR still have unchained so they mitigate more the total of dps lose, and inner beast ignore the 20% damage penalty, i will encourage to make a test if you want, WAR don't loose more dps that the other 2 i tank stance.

Again, in what context are we comparing these things?

Upheaval? I'll save that for when I'm in Deliverance and using Inner Release thanks.

Unchained? Yes, that exists. But why, outside of the pull, would I want to be in Defiance?

Inner Beast? It ignores the damage penalty, but it's still less potency than Fell Cleave. IB is 350 potency, FC is 520 (That's a 33% damage loss per IB used instead of a FC). Why would I spend my gauge on Inner Beast?

Also, why do I want to be in Tank stance to begin with? On ANY Tank? Outside of the pull where its extra enmity is useful, what reason is there? Especially for non-WAR tanks whom have their active mitigation skills (Sheltron and TBN) available in DPS stance?

oh god lord, you have equilibrium for that, its free, its 60 seconds recast and heal you missing heal, please enjoy the sinergy betwen defiance and equilibrium, you dont need a healer at all.

If you read, I specifically mentioned that PLD and DRK don't have to use ANY COOLDOWNS OR HAVE A HEALER in order to benefit from their defensive stances.

Telling me "Lul just use Equilibrium" doesn't mean that I get free benefit from my tank stance because I had to use my Equilibrium CD in order to get the passive benefit from my stance. To say nothing about the fact that if I'm not at full health, Equilibrium doesn't necessarily even bring me to a point where the bonus max health from Defiance is actually being used.

living dead: 300s recast, 60x5=300.

So it is. My bad. Don't know why I was thinking 4 minutes.

PLD can stay on 7 min coldown since the nature of the skill, living dead its already 5 min, and only have barely 1 use more that PLD depending of the fight so 5 min for holmgang its perfect.

Except that Holmgang would still be preferred over Living Dead 100% of the time. Due to the trash mechanics from Living Dead (Well... Maybe if we got some more encounters that had Tankbusters after untargetable phases then LD would be favoured)

Since that's part of what makes these skills unbalanceable. It's not only their duration and CD, but also their actual effects to consider.

[shao32]

Yes, I use it.

But to generate LB. If it didn't generate extra LB, there'd be no reason to use them (Especially Divine Fail which actually requires a heal to be cast in order to activate the shield in the first place)

You don't raid don't you? Only a person that don't do savage will say that, the shield mitigation it's really really helpful, omega, final omega godka, neoexdeath are just one of the examples of heavy raid damage, I saw you don't put a foot on those fights at least with that character but those shields are more that just LB builders and sorry if this sound a bit rude but if you don't use all you available tools to help you party you are playing wrong this game in my opinion.

but now you're opening up the idea where if one pair has AoE shields, the other pair needs something that brings what the AoE shields do. Otherwise people will try and run both the AoE shield tanks because that's how you generate more LB and more LB = more DPS.

If you then balance the other pair so that they have something equivalent to the AoE shields... Then congratulations, you've literally just employed the balancing of all 4 tanks around a similar level of utility

Excuse me but I think I was clear when I saw this kind of balance being a theorical think it will have something, mandatory unstackeable buffs or whatever to make the MT-OT combo the most optimal choice so there will be no limit on what the other couple should and shouldn't have.

Because history shows that people will do what they need to in order to get the best DPS output.

This includes things like tanking things in DPS stance because the DPS gained from the Tank > the DPS lost from the Healer having to heal more.

The only ways to prevent these scenarios is by FORCING these sub-roles to be necessary. Which is a great way to literally destroy any and all 8 man content in the Duty Finder, by making the least popular role now be split between "MT" and "OT" sub-roles where one of each is mandatory.

Yes they do, but tanks abuse of tanking on DPS stance BCS tank stance is badly designed, and if you are a good tank and use you tools properly they don't make his healers have to heal more.

Yes that's what I say but not so exaggerated as you claim to be, having both tanks from the same couple will be less efficient not impossible, there is a big difference and it doesn't destroy anything, I get in infinity duty finder party's that bring 2 SCH or 2 WHM and it wasn't the end of the world since this game is easy in 99% of the content.

You can easily make tank equality. By just removing the inequal parts of their kits that divide them based on how well they can perform the same role.

Well we can make a list then:
-tank stances
-selfhealing
-snap agro
-movility
-fluff mitigation
-invulnerabilitys
-dps of course
-utility

I can continue, we have plenty of holes to cover that balanced metod

1) Yes, WAR can use Unchained. I specifically even mentioned that. Outside of Unchained, WAR loses the most damage to be in Tank stance.

2) I'm still curious about what situation we're talking about with Tank stances actually being used. Since most of the time, they're only used for the pull. In which case, DRK is competitive with WAR because it can generate enmity quickly (With DA Plunge/DA Dark Passenger. To be honest, I've been using a lot of DA Power Slash recently because it generates TONS of enmity for all of 1 lacklustre damage combo into an instant oGCD removal of grit)

Again, in what context are we comparing these things?

Upheaval? I'll save that for when I'm in Deliverance and using Inner Release thanks.

Unchained? Yes, that exists. But why, outside of the pull, would I want to be in Defiance?

Inner Beast? It ignores the damage penalty, but it's still less potency than Fell Cleave. IB is 350 potency, FC is 520 (That's a 33% damage loss per IB used instead of a FC). Why would I spend my gauge on Inner Beast?

Also, why do I want to be in Tank stance to begin with? On ANY Tank? Outside of the pull where its extra enmity is useful, what reason is there? Especially for non-WAR tanks whom have their active mitigation skills (Sheltron and TBN) available in DPS stance?

In none, it's just a comparation of tanks performance, is a fact that WAR have the highest peak of performance on full tank stance compared to the other 2 in tank stance, it's not consider useful BCS the meta but it doesn't change the fact WAR can archive this and the other 2 not.

You ignored complete how WAR kit works in defiance, in full defiance gameplay using you skills in the optimal way like you will play in deliverance will make WAR damage penalty result to be a 25% of DPS less compared to deliverance DPS.

This is the same for DRK and PLD, despite the test of DRK are a bit more harder to make since you can't calculate blood price returns against a dummy, with approx calculations it's ends with a lose of 25% of his DPS more or less too.

If you read, I specifically mentioned that PLD and DRK don't have to use ANY COOLDOWNS OR HAVE A HEALER in order to benefit from their defensive stances.

Telling me "Lul just use Equilibrium" doesn't mean that I get free benefit from my tank stance because I had to use my Equilibrium CD in order to get the passive benefit from my stance. To say nothing about the fact that if I'm not at full health, Equilibrium doesn't necessarily even bring me to a point where the bonus max health from Defiance is actually being used.

Excuse me but I have to eat 1/3 of dark arts witch is a 43.3 potency wasted and a entire off global coldown to activate grit, I will kill for a CD that reduce all that to zero like WAR and I bet all PLDs will say the same, equilibrium it's stay there taking dust until you enter on defiance, WAR exceed all tanks in mitigation under defiance, just press the button.

Except that Holmgang would still be preferred over Living Dead 100% of the time. Due to the trash mechanics from Living Dead (Well... Maybe if we got some more encounters that had Tankbusters after untargetable phases then LD would be favoured)

Since that's part of what makes these skills unbalanceable. It's not only their duration and CD, but also their actual effects to consider.

That's assuming living dead will stay the same in 5.0, we don't know how are the definitive kits of each tank to make assumptions like that yet, let's just assume any change to accommodate any of our theorys can be possible.

[Phoenicia]

You don't raid don't you? Only a person that don't do savage will say that, the shield mitigation it's really really helpful,

It's the other way around mate.. Only people that don't optimize think shields actually are helpful outside of generating LB. lol

You calculate these things with Healing GCD costs.

1- Divine Veil ALREADY costs a GCD to activate. But if healers are ALREADY topping people off before AoE, Veil is already useless.

2- Even with Veil + SiO, AoEs WILL break the shields (they are not that strong really) and healers will heal again to top people off.

The scenarios where Veil and SiO actually completely prevent raid busters are where content is no longer relevant and then optimization is no longer relevant either.

In none, it's just a comparation of tanks performance, is a fact that WAR have the highest peak of performance on full tank stance compared to the other 2 in tank stance, it's not consider useful BCS the meta but it doesn't change the fact WAR can archive this and the other 2 not.

You ignored complete how WAR kit works in defiance, in full defiance gameplay using you skills in the optimal way like you will play in deliverance will make WAR damage penalty result to be a 25% of DPS less compared to deliverance DPS.

This is the same for DRK and PLD, despite the test of DRK are a bit more harder to make since you can't calculate blood price returns against a dummy, with approx calculations it's ends with a lose of 25% of his DPS more or less too.

It's actually more than 25% for WAR. You go from 105% to 80% AND lose Fell Cleave for the 33% weaker IB. It's close to 31% loss. Unchained won't fix that because your IR burst won't be affected by Unchained since IB already ignores Defiance penalty. Again, each FC replaced by IB is a 33% loss on that GCD. Upheaval is 1 ability. The HP from Defiance makes it do the 5% less than Deliverance since you lose that 5% bonus.

As for DRK, Blood Price mana return is PITIFUL. You don't use it for the MP return, you use it for the blood and you get 20 gauge/usage. You also lose Bloodweapon. Only saving grace for Grit DRK is Blood Spiller ignoring most of the stance penalty.

Sword Oath is is 10% of PLD's DPS (13% increase from base), Shield Oath penalizing us by -15% DPS is a 25% DPS loss.

[shao32]

It's the other way around mate.. Only people that don't optimize think shields actually are helpful outside of generating LB. lol

You calculate these things with Healing GCD costs.

1- Divine Veil ALREADY costs a GCD to activate. But if healers are ALREADY topping people off before AoE, Veil is already useless.

2- Even with Veil + SiO, AoEs WILL break the shields (they are not that strong really) and healers will heal again to top people off.

The scenarios where Veil and SiO actually completely prevent raid busters are where content is no longer relevant and then optimization is no longer relevant either.

Well probably it's you that enjoy having the entire party HP more empty that full, I'm not one of those and none on my raid like that too so any help to improve the safety of the raid it's a welcome and pleasant feeling.

Apart of that not every raid have perfect healers that mitigate perfectly, specially for all those ppl that go in to savage with pugs any help it's just welcome.

I'm glad you have amazing healers that make you think veil and Sio are not useful as shields plus not need it, but I stay in the opinion that more free safety=better specially if it's just require to push a button.

It's actually more than 25% for WAR. You go from 105% to 80% AND lose Fell Cleave for the 33% weaker IB. It's close to 31% loss. Unchained won't fix that because your IR burst won't be affected by Unchained since IB already ignores Defiance penalty. Again, each FC replaced by IB is a 33% loss on that GCD. Upheaval is 1 ability. The HP from Defiance makes it do the 5% less than Deliverance since you lose that 5% bonus.

As for DRK, Blood Price mana return is PITIFUL. You don't use it for the MP return, you use it for the blood and you get 20 gauge/usage. You also lose Bloodweapon. Only saving grace for Grit DRK is Blood Spiller ignoring most of the stance penalty.

Sword Oath is is 10% of PLD's DPS (13% increase from base), Shield Oath penalizing us by -15% DPS is a 25% DPS loss.

i make a test since i know you want proofs and this is my result.

after make a optimal rotation (infuriate on coldown, gauge over 50 for the crit, all gauge skills on inner release, ect) of 3 min with WAR (non optimal gear) i manage to dealt 5022 of dps, and then i did the same with defiance adapting unchained and upheaval gains to my rotation and i was able to dealt 3745 of dps.

3745 ÷ 5022 x 100= 74,5718837
74,57 -100 = 25,43 % of damage less compared to deliverance.

[Kaedan]

To be frank, you make some poor assumptions in your OP that simply wouldn't be the case, and thus worry about nothing really.

1) Just because a tank is considered a MT, wouldn't take away aggro generation from other tanks.
2) Just because a tank is considered a MT, doesn't mean mitigation is taken away from other tanks.
3) They are doing complete reworks of the battle system, so we can't make any assumptions about accessories because we have no idea how they are changing stats.

I think, OP, you are creating problems to worry about. SE devs aren't stupid. They aren't going to gimp OTs so they can't be MTs. In fact, every tank will be able to MT. Simply two of them will be more suited for the purpose.

For example, PLD has Cover, which (along with a few other things) make it more suitable for OT, since he can support the MT while still being in damage mode. Having Cover doesn't take any abilities away from the other tanks currently.

[Alestrae]

I'm sorry, I'm late to the discussion and thought the op was generally observing that players will be players and will optimise their tanks based on "the most suitable" (most efficient for clear, usually equalling fastest). This potentially benches a minimum of 2 "tanks" but theoretically up to three in progression raiding.

This may not be the case for you and your own raiding group. If you prefer the extra mitigation that's fine. I know I do, from experiences outside ff14 and wonder why tanks have defensive stances if they only use them on the pull. In this instance it makes sense just to bake the extra enmity into the pulling ability and lose the stances.

[DaulBan]

I personally just cringe at the word choice, though the thought of SE implementing a paradigm is always... concerning. Tanks as they are now aren't broken, people like a given tank or not primarily based on gameplay since the merits to each aren't exactly life-changing. Attempting to enforce something to make the choice restrictive is just kinda blah. There are different ways of reinforcing the concept of an 'MT' or 'OT', and some of them are more intrusive than others, but really I'd rather SE just made Gunbreaker and made it fun, then let us decide.

[Kaedan]

I personally just cringe at the word choice, though the thought of SE implementing a paradigm is always... concerning. Tanks as they are now aren't broken, people like a given tank or not primarily based on gameplay since the merits to each aren't exactly life-changing. Attempting to enforce something to make the choice restrictive is just kinda blah. There are different ways of reinforcing the concept of an 'MT' or 'OT', and some of them are more intrusive than others, but really I'd rather SE just made Gunbreaker and made it fun, then let us decide.

They aren't going to enforce anything to make the choice restrictive. Simply two tanks will be "the best" for MT, and two will be "the best" for OT. As in my example above, Cover is one of the things that makes PLD the current go-to OT. That doesn't mean it CAN'T MT. Just that it's better in the OT role than a WAR is.

[Dalmacus]

I don't understand why they use the "we add another tank because MT & OT imbalance" excuse to add a tank job. I play on JP server and we have no issue with any tank job MT & OT.

[Izsha]

They aren't going to enforce anything to make the choice restrictive. Simply two tanks will be "the best" for MT, and two will be "the best" for OT. As in my example above, Cover is one of the things that makes PLD the current go-to OT. That doesn't mean it CAN'T MT. Just that it's better in the OT role than a WAR is.

4 tanks, 12 combinations of MT/OT. Complete freedom of choice.
4 tanks, 2 'MT', 2 'OT' sub classes. 4 combinations of MT/OT that are actually decent. Crap choice.

Thats a complete deletion of player choice. That is INCREDIBLY restrictive. Have you been playing this or any other MMO? If a job is significantly more effective at a position it will lock down that position. Just because a Pld 'can' tank the boss and a war 'can' hit it from the side is irrelivant. Players do not accept that now when the jobs are not explicitly designed for niches. That will just get exponentially worse if tanks are actively designed for this subset of a role.