Limit Break too Limiting

[WaterShield]

I dont mind either "Group limit break or individual limit break" , but i agree that its feels bland and could use some updates.
If its become individual limit break though, i want the system to force "everyone" in the party to need to use it at some point in the fight.
Most of the DPS right now are refuse to LB because of FFlogs, reason is they lose slightly of damage...
(and ppl says fflogs/act dont affect the game... but strongly encourage player to not do their job properly for self benefits, including uptime and not avoiding mechanics)

Doesn't use lb, does more damage, boss dies quicker and does less damage to the party. "Doing their job wrong".

Kappa

[Shadowbringer]

Doesn't use lb, does more damage, boss dies quicker and does less damage to the party. "Doing their job wrong".

Kappa

Sureeeeee, if you can do atleast 90%+ dont failed to every mechanics, but even they died they are not going to do LB anyway.
I dont see how weakness dps that refuse to LB do more damage than LB, Kappa.
Even you dont died, your own dps not going to be faster than 3 LB 3 times.

Tell me why Samurai which lost next to nothing not LB and have Ninja do it instead? in most of the run, only melee that LB is ever a Ninja while they have a lot of job to do already.
Its because of a thirst of FFlogs.

EDIT : Do you know how they clear Omega before Panto 2 without Echo? They chesse in LB with SCH shield(1st LB 3 is at 1st Flamethrower), so not using LB is faster? change my mind.

[WaterShield]

Sureeeeee, if you can do atleast 90%+ dont failed to every mechanics, but even they died they are not going to do LB anyway.
I dont see how weakness dps that refuse to LB do more damage than LB, Kappa.
Even you dont died, your own dps not going to be faster than 3 LB 3 times.

Tell me why Samurai which lost next to nothing not LB and have Ninja do it instead? in most of the run, only melee that LB is ever a Ninja while they have a lot of job to do already.
Its because of a thirst of FFlogs.

EDIT : Do you know how they clear Omega before Panto 2 without Echo? They chesse in LB with SCH shield(1st LB 3 is at 1st Flamethrower), so not using LB is faster? change my mind.

Your previous quote clearly referenced DPS not using LB. This does not mean not using LB at all. My point is that it is a party resource with multiple applications and having a DPS use it is not always correct.

Essentially I take issue with your "but strongly encourage players to not do their job properly for self benefits". If I can do more damage with my rotation than by using LB.... then I shouldn't use LB full stop.

"Tell me why Samurai which lost next to nothing not LB and have Ninja do it instead? in most of the run, only melee that LB is ever a Ninja while they have a lot of job to do already.
Its because of a thirst of FFlogs."

Ninja does less personal damage than Samurai? Meaning that if Ninja uses LB it is a bigger DPS gain for the party than if you have Samurai do it?!? Also of course you have the weakness DPS use LB. Ideally they shouldn't have weakness in the first place though.

"Most of the DPS right now are refuse to LB because of FFlogs, reason is they lose slightly of damage..."
If I do slightly more damage by not using LB... then the boss dies slightly quicker. Which is slightly better? But clearly doing my job wrong if I do that.

TLDR version: IF you kill boss faster everyone's numbers look better. So, people are encouraged to clear in the most efficient manner possible.

[Shadowbringer]

Your previous quote clearly referenced DPS not using LB. This does not mean not using LB at all. My point is that it is a party resource with multiple applications and having a DPS use it is not always correct.

Essentially I take issue with your "but strongly encourage players to not do their job properly for self benefits". If I can do more damage with my rotation than by using LB.... then I shouldn't use LB full stop.

"Tell me why Samurai which lost next to nothing not LB and have Ninja do it instead? in most of the run, only melee that LB is ever a Ninja while they have a lot of job to do already.
Its because of a thirst of FFlogs."

Ninja does less personal damage than Samurai? Meaning that if Ninja uses LB it is a bigger DPS gain for the party than if you have Samurai do it?!? Also of course you have the weakness DPS use LB. Ideally they shouldn't have weakness in the first place though.

"Most of the DPS right now are refuse to LB because of FFlogs, reason is they lose slightly of damage..."
If I do slightly more damage by not using LB... then the boss dies slightly quicker. Which is slightly better? But clearly doing my job wrong if I do that.

TLDR version: IF you kill boss faster everyone's numbers look better. So, people are encouraged to clear in the most efficient manner possible.

Still doesnt change a fact that "FFlogs strongly encourage players to not do their job properly for self benefits"
With a minimum ilv LB helps a lot in any fights, and when its up it need to be use, for easy example this tier in Midgardsormr you can LB before doing Hot tail + Orbs but most of melee refuse to use it because they want to do damage while their skillspeed is not optimize yet with their rotation on low ilv gears.
You can get 2nd LB3 in Midgardsormr fight back in a day but for their own selfish benefit they refuse to do it.

For your easy example im going to take your Red mage as and example, in Halicarnassus or Guardian on the add phase/bliblo, caster LB is better to use here because it cover the entire area while dmg add and the boss at the same time and you can pre-cast it, but as of you, you going to make Range do it even it requires a range to move to do LB and you caster can stand still, i have been there and saw this happened.
Its all because of own selfish benefit gains over FFlogs of course, you will skip 1 mechanic in Guardian with/without LB anyway so it make no differences who LB, what make it whole difference is Melee LB on Guardian so it guarantee skip last mechanic at minimum ilv and guess what, they never do it, "because my Logs"

And your Ninja example shows how selfish ppl are, they scream for trick attack/shadewalker/smoke screen, while put every burden on Ninja.
Do you know how much "Slightly" you mention? Samurai only lost 100~300 dmg from LB, how does that benefit party in anyway? 1 - 2 seconds faster in that fight? does that worth anything? that amount worth nothing.
its not even 1% while LB3 is 3% guarantee, so you want to make it slightly better? how about melee LB when its up and not delay it.

[WaterShield]

Still doesnt change a fact that "FFlogs strongly encourage players to not do their job properly for self benefits"
With a minimum ilv LB helps a lot in any fights, and when its up it need to be use, for easy example this tier in Midgardsormr you can LB before doing Hot tail + Orbs but most of melee refuse to use it because they want to do damage while their skillspeed is not optimize yet with their rotation on low ilv gears.
You can get 2nd LB3 in Midgardsormr fight back in a day but for their own selfish benefit they refuse to do it.

For your easy example im going to take your Red mage as and example, in Halicarnassus or Guardian on the add phase/bliblo, caster LB is better to use here because it cover the entire area while dmg add and the boss at the same time and you can pre-cast it, but as of you, you going to make Range do it even it requires a range to move to do LB and you caster can stand still, i have been there and saw this happened.
Its all because of own selfish benefit gains over FFlogs of course, you will skip 1 mechanic in Guardian with/without LB anyway so it make no differences who LB, what make it whole difference is Melee LB on Guardian so it guarantee skip last mechanic at minimum ilv and guess what, they never do it, "because my Logs"

And your Ninja example shows how selfish ppl are, they scream for trick attack/shadewalker/smoke screen, while put every burden on Ninja.
Do you know how much "Slightly" you mention? Samurai only lost 100~300 dmg from LB, how does that benefit party in anyway? 1 - 2 seconds faster in that fight? does that worth anything? that amount worth nothing.
its not even 1% while LB3 is 3% guarantee, so you want to make it slightly better? how about melee LB when its up and not delay it.

Ok, lets make this more simple.

If I.... can do more.... damage.... by not using LB.... and the party... can do more... damage... by having someone else LB.... even maybe a Tank... to cheese a mechanic.... I am not... doing my job.... wrong.


"And your Ninja example shows how selfish ppl are, they scream for trick attack/shadewalker/smoke screen, while put every burden on Ninja.
Do you know how much "Slightly" you mention? Samurai only lost 100~300 dmg from LB, how does that benefit party in anyway? 1 - 2 seconds faster in that fight? does that worth anything? that amount worth nothing.
its not even 1% while LB3 is 3% guarantee, so you want to make it slightly better? how about melee LB when its up and not delay it."

If I do 100~300 more damage by not using LB... then using it is a DPS loss.... which means it is WORSE. -100 DPS is not a good thing. Why would you want someone to do less damage on purpose?!?

"For your easy example im going to take your Red mage as and example, in Halicarnassus or Guardian on the add phase/bliblo, caster LB is better to use here because it cover the entire area while dmg add and the boss at the same time and you can pre-cast it, but as of you, you going to make Range do it even it requires a range to move to do LB and you caster can stand still, i have been there and saw this happened.
Its all because of own selfish benefit gains over FFlogs of course, you will skip 1 mechanic in Guardian with/without LB anyway so it make no differences who LB, what make it whole difference is Melee LB on Guardian so it guarantee skip last mechanic at minimum ilv and guess what, they never do it, "because my Logs""

Ummm... OFC I would want to do that.... Because that would actually be a huge DPS gain not a loss. Why is this hard to understand?

[Shadowbringer]

Ok, lets make this more simple.

If I.... can do more.... damage.... by not using LB.... and the party... can do more... damage... by having someone else LB.... even maybe a Tank... to cheese a mechanic.... I am not... doing my job.... wrong.

This is how tank selfish started, because none of them want to LB, easy example M/F or Red fists, because "my dps"
And you know what, without Echo you can still kill M/F before any mechanics on the last phase ever happens, if 1 of M/F already dead you can have melee LB2 the one that still alive so we can probably only get Meteor+Arrow or none at all, but no, "my dps" let tank do the whole mechanics + LB and have the fight longer for a few seconds, "Slightly longer".

EDIT : to your added comment

No its not, it make no difference to the group, it doesnt make a fight faster, it doesnt benefits group if the fight is any how slightly longer than not LB, it make your fflogs looks good and thats it.

" If I do 100~300 more damage by not using LB... then using it is a DPS loss.... which means it is WORSE. -100 DPS is not a good thing. Why would you want someone to do less damage on purpose?!? "
Answer : LB is 3% and your small dps is not even 1%, LB is faster here in anyway you arguing, not LB here make the fight longer, less effective for group wise.

Ummm... OFC I would want to do that.... Because that would actually be a huge DPS gain not a loss. Why is this hard to understand?
Answer : it doesnt matter who did it, you wont make a fight any faster anyway, but you still have to do it in Halicarnassus/Guardian example, but Caster one is more easier to execute yet you have Range did it, its FFlogs selfishness in this case.

[WaterShield]

This is how tank selfish started, because none of them want to LB, easy example M/F or Red fists, because "my dps"
And you know what, without Echo you can still kill M/F before any mechanics on the last phase ever happens, if 1 of M/F already dead you can have melee LB2 the one that still alive so we can probably only get Meteor+Arrow or none at all, but no, "my dps" let tank do the whole mechanics + LB and have the fight longer for a few seconds, "Slightly longer".

Mate.... do you even raid? I'm legitimately beginning to think that you don't.

TLDR Logs encourage faster clears which are better for everyone. This is the last I will say on the subject. Good day.

[Shadowbringer]

Mate.... do you even raid? I'm legitimately beginning to think that you don't.

TLDR Logs encourage faster clears which are better for everyone. This is the last I will say on the subject. Good day.

Fastest logs run in Omega without Echo is cheesing LB3 in 1st Flamethrower, and they kill it before Panto2 ever happens/cast, its even before they need to move the boss to the middle.
Sure you probably raiding, but probably normie tier or so, if you want to argue about speed run, the fastest run this and last tier is how many LB they can get in that fight, Demon Chadarnook and Omega is a good example, not like you know how fast or how many LB they use anyway.

Edit : i just checked my main none-echo logs, and my fastest run on Final Omega was 8:45, my group LB it because we dont want to do 2nd Archive All, you ever skip 2nd Archive All without melee LB the whole fight? i would be delight to see if you/your group did(with Echo its easy to do now so whatever i guess)

[WaterShield]

Fastest logs run in Omega without Echo is cheesing LB3 in 1st Flamethrower, and they kill it before Panto2 ever happens/cast, its even before they need to move the boss to the middle.
Sure you probably raiding, but probably normie tier or so, if you want to argue about speed run, the fastest run this and last tier is how many LB they can get in that fight, Demon Chadarnook and Omega is a good example, not like you know how fast or how many LB they use anyway.

Edit : i just checked my main none-echo logs, and my fastest run on Final Omega was 8:45, my group LB it because we dont want to do 2nd Archive All, you ever skip 2nd Archive All without melee LB the whole fight? i would be delight to see if you/your group did.

Ok... you enticed me back into the conversation.

So to clarify. You were speed running with a group of toxic people who won't LB bc it's a DPS loss? Or are you suggesting that using LB can actually make a fight shorter and therefore increase everyone's DPS?

Basically the point I've been arguing from the beginning. That logs do not encourage people to not use LB. That it isn't as black and white of an issue as you are making out.
But clearly logs were incentivizing you to not use LB.

Edit: This is legitimately the last I will say on the matter though as you are now brandishing your logs as a weapon and becoming insulting.

[WaterShield]

To be back on topic I'm fine with the way LB works as is.